Balean Twist - Further explanation needed

Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by Starlight, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. Bizau and Andrei came up with a great looking effect. They make this look rather easy, don’t they? However, as one quickly learns, this trick requires prior ability at performing a card spring and some serious practice is required. Andrei did mention early on in his tutorial that this trick is best referenced as a demonstration of skill. Yet, it still is presented as a trick to be performed.

    In addition, there is no reference to the level of skill required before purchasing this trick. That is disappointing. The sale of a ten dollar trick implies that it cannot be that difficult to master. Here one finds out that this is not the case. I see seven stages necessary to learn and perform this trick:

    First, one must understand the mechanics behind doing a card spring. There is both the regular card spring and the altered card spring explained in the tutorial. Comparisons between the two techniques are necessary, so the student can acquire a better understanding of what is required.

    Second, how the cards are being released needs further explanation. Are the cards being released from the finger tips or from the thumb? It seems that the spring can be accomplished both ways. However, cards sprung from the fingers results in mostly a clumpy result. Cards sprung from the thumb seem to flow a bit better, but getting the timing down and a smooth flow is going to take some serious practice. Or are the cards being sprung from both the fingers and thumb at the same time? This needs to be explained further in detail. When one practices this part of the trick they need to know what result to expect and to see happening.

    If you look at the video posted by: NathanaelBergenMagic (See post #1 under “Balean Twist – Will I be able to perform it”), then you’ll notice a number of things: a) you’ll immediately see the difference in card spring technique being used from what is taught in the BT tutorial. b) You’ll wonder about the type of cards that are being used.

    Third, what type of cards is recommended for this trick? Can any deck of regular playing cards be used, or is it better to use specific decks of cards? If specific decks of cards are necessary then which ones are recommended? What about the use of plastic cards: is it better to use plastic cards compared to regular playing card decks? Is it necessary to powder the cards before attempting to spring them to improve the flow during the actual spring regardless of what type of cards are selected?

    When opening a brand new deck of cards and attempting to spring them, the cards are extremely stiff. This begs the question: Is it better to break in a deck of cards before using them for the spring? If “yes” then how bendable should the cards be before attempting to use them for the card spring? When should broken in and bendable cards not be used? Or is it better to use a brand new deck of cards to do the card spring? This is a very important point which is not covered in detail in the BT tutorial.

    Fourth, let's say the cards are sprung from the thumb then does the special move described in the BT tutorial work with this method of springing the cards? Or is it better to perfect the special move using the finger spring release method? Or does the special move work best if the cards are sprung from both the fingers and thumb at the same time? Just watching the video leaves the student wondering about which way the cards are best released in the card spring.

    Fifth, in the BT tutorial it seems that the card above the selected card is the subject of the special move. But that doesn’t make much sense! Yet visually in the BT tutorial this is what the student sees happening. Watch Andrei’s pinky. Which card is he touching at that point in the BT tutorial? Is it the selected card or the card just above it? Unless I am mistaken, it seems more appropriate to apply the special move to the chosen card before doing the card spring. More clarification is needed at this point.

    Sixth, the student has to figure out how to do the card spring with at least seven to nine inches while executing it. Apparently, this distance is necessary in order to enable the actual BT effect to take place. So, on this note, Bizau and Andrei need to explain how to prevent the cards from falling all over the place or at least above ones practice area. How can the student achieve a smooth flow of cards during the card spring? What is happening with ones fingers during the process of springing the cards? If while practicing the card spring the cards are not flowing properly between the hands then how can we determine the actual cause of the problem?

    Seventh, Andrei mentions in the tutorial to do a card spring a few times before actually performing this trick. That sounds like pretty good advice, since it will prevent being asked to do the spring again after you’ve executed the trick.

    However, how reliable is this trick? The effect itself does not seem to be something which will work every time one tries to perform it. Here’s what I mean. If you are warmed up from a few practice attempts then he likelihood of being able to perform the card spring will most likely result in success. However, if one pulls out a deck of cards during a performance after doing some other effect using some other items then the likelihood of success seems more prone to failure. The timing of when to do this trick needs to be addressed.

    Bizau and Andrei need to keep in mind that seeing a video presentation is very helpful indeed, but the finer points of what is actually happening is left to be determined by the one trying to achieve the same effect. Did Bizau and Andrei do a good job a presenting this trick? Yes, they did a good job. However, their tutorial needs improvement in clarifying the areas which I’ve addressed here.

    It is quite troubling to one learning this trick to actually see these magicians making this trick look so easy. But if they can do this then we all can do it too. In order for this to happen more detailed instructions are necessary. You cannot make the assumption that a buyer of this trick has prior experience with certain other components the BT taps into. Every part of the trick needs clear and precise explanation.

  2. Well first off I would like to say when you said, "In addition, there is no reference to the level of skill required before purchasing this trick." If you look 'Tricks' main menu page and on the Balean Twist link it does reference the difficulty as 'Intermediate' so it does reference the difficulty before purchasing it, as do every single magic effect you buy on theory11. lol.

    I also understand the frustration you might have with them "Not explaining it enough" but they do kind of expect magicians to know what they are talking about in the instructional portion, especially since it's in the Intermediate range. You wouldn't see a highschool Algebra teacher teaching their students that 3x3=9 because they expect their students to already know that. Also what you said about the trick being cheap so you would expect it to be easy, please don't do that, that's typically not how the choose the price for it. I mean The Revolver Change(which you can find here on theory11) is $6.95 and it's extremely difficult because it's in the Expert range.

    And as for your question upon which cards to use, I'm sure it's implied that almost all cards would work otherwise I'm sure they would mention it. Best luck would go to a regular bicycle deck, and it probably wouldn't be the best idea to use some crappy Pirates of the Caribbean deck you find at a gas station or something. hahaha

    All in all I'm sorry to hear that you were disappointed but what I said above is true. Keep practicing it and best of luck to you! =)
  3. To be fair, it does specifically say "Intermediate" ability level on the site, which we believe is an accurate distinction and category for things that aren't TOO technically demanding, but will require practice in order to successfully execute.

    Starlight, I've sent you a private message with my experiences on the BT technique. Hopefully it helps you out. Please let me know your progress!
  4. Sounds like most of the issues stem from an inability to perform a spring.
    When I first watched the trailer for the Balean Twist, I had only a vague idea of how to perform a card spring (I didn't know the exact finger positions.)
    But somehow, I knew that the download for the Balean Twist would likely not include a tutorial for the card spring.
    The Balean Twist instructional download is, after all, meant to teach the twist itself, not the card spring.
    And this is something that should be common sense.
    This analogy may seem random, but cookbooks do not come with instructions on how to operate the stove.
    If you want to learn the spring, you could search it up on YouTube, head over to The Virts, browse the media section on Dan and Dave's site, or purchase DVDs such as Andrei Jikh's Genesis (v1) or Dan and Dave's Trilogy (everythingelse).

    And yes, the spring does require serious practice.
  5. To The Three Who've Responded to date:

    The analogies presented pointing to having prior knowledge are indeed legitimate rebuttals. I understand your point-of-view's. What I need to tell all of you, however, is that I have only navigated this site on several occasions. As such, I wasn't aware of the classification system used for tricks. Why? Well, perhaps I just was more interested in what was being sold. And, I wanted to treat myself to something new. So, I purchased this otherwise terrific looking trick, because I wanted to be able to add it to my repitore of things I do. I placed a higher expectation upon this tutorial than what would be considered by others with more experience as a good instructional. Those with more experience, who are proficient with a card spring, will see more value in this tutorial because it teaches the secret to the Balean Twist. And, in that vien, it does do this pretty well; although I haven't progressed to the point of being able to do it at this time. Yet, it may have been helpful if Bizau and Andrei had a prerequisite section on their tutorial with some references to more basic training sources. This trick is very impressive otherwise, and I hope to be able to master it in the near future. It sure does take work! The good magic really does require a good deal of practice. I will be following some of your suggestions. Your comments are well received. For now, I've got to restack my cards for another try (lol). Sometimes it is good to go someplace where you've never been before.

  6. Practice

    Hey Starlight,
    After reading this post I have realized that 80% of your questions could all have been answered on your own through practice, a concept called "try, fail, and adjust" - not trying to put you down or anything, but you dont need to be spoonfed 110% of All the information ever before you go out and try it and make it work; this is bad habbit in All areas of life, not just magic - so dont make a habbit of it. One of my favorite books of all time is Think and Grow Rich, its not Be Spoonfed and Grow Rich.

    In this case, if brand new cards dont work well for you, use broke in cards. If you miss it 80% of the time springing off the thumb, then do it off the fingers if it is more consistant that way. Dont know how to card spring? Check out the resources mentioned already. If you want to get this move down bad enough you will, I hope this helps.

  7. Tyler (aka: gavinross): The first paragraph of your post (#6) makes some assumptions which do not give me credit where credit is due. The concept (as you put it) ""try, fail, and adjust" is not foreign to me. Matter of fact, it is something which I've been in the process of doing without your need of expression. Now mind you, I'm not trying to put you down or anything but your assumption of being spoonfed 110% is (to say it nicely) off the mark of the very purpose of this forum.

    In the book: Think and Grow Rich there is a concept called the "Mastermind." You certainly did read that chapter, didn't you? That Tyler is the very basis of this forum. You must realize that not everyone comes to this site with the same level of understanding and experience as perhaps you do. I am now assuming that you do have some unknown level experience. Nor is everyone extremely familiar with navigating the T11 site itself. For those participating in this forum with high levels of experience, when they participate in making comments to be helpful to others, they need to remember what it was like for them when they didn't have their own accomplished level of experience (whatever that may be).

    Let me teach you something Tyler: a good teacher needs to cover their subject in detail. Even if that means making cursory statements at the beginning of an intermediate tutorial as to what prerequisites are needed before one can fully understand the material being presented. For example, using a former posted analogy, one may desire (familar term, right?) to learn alegrebra but they need to first understand basic math. Expressed in terms related to what we are speaking about here, if a student goes out to buy an alegrebra cd tutorial then perhaps the trailer should express the prerequisite of understanding basic math before purchasing the cd teaching alegrebra. I think you get my drift here.

    In my opinion, which you may think differently upon (after all, you are entitled to your opinion too), the BT Tutorial fell short of mentioning prerequisites necessary before being able to achieve such a stunningly skillful effect. And, Tyler, if you've read my earlier posts then you will clearly see that I recognize the need for serious practice, with what we magicians rate as good magic. However, again, please do not fail to realize that their are many different people who may come into this wonderful place to share ideas and ask questions amoung those who share a common interest.

    In all fairness to you Tyler, your last paragraph:
    "In this case, if brand new cards dont work well for you, use broke in cards. If you miss it 80% of the time springing off the thumb, then do it off the fingers if it is more consistant that way. Dont know how to card spring? Check out the resources mentioned already. If you want to get this move down bad enough you will, I hope this helps."
    That comment falls within the definition of a mastermind. That last paragraph of your post really should have been the only paragraph in your post. Why? Because it was helpful. How so? Well, reading about another magician's expereince with doing a card spring, the many different types of tries or attempts, which they may have made themselves, further supports what I've all ready found out in my own ""try, fail, and adjust" practice sessions. Can you understand Tyler that the sharing of experiences about a particular effect can shorten the learning curve for someone else, who may be left wondering if their own trials are on the right path? Certainly you can!

    If you like (as I do) the writings of Napolean Hill then you may want to reread the chapter on the success principle called the Mastermind.

    You may also want to reread my post #5. In this post, I am sure you can see that I realize that much practice is needed to perform the BT.

    Ending this post on a postive note: Tyler, I am happy to learn that you have a good philosopical basis for guiding yourself down your own path of life. Good for you! However, a bit of experience back to you. Sometimes you have to alter your course to your finished objective. Those who have done it before you can nudge you back onto the right tracks. That is the purpose of this question and answer area on this forum.

    Spoonfed, No! Keep this in mind: Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no help at all. Isn't it just great, that people who get on this forum, can find help from those who've accomplished something they are trying to do?

    To say (as you put it): "you dont need to be spoonfed 110% of All the information ever before you go out and try it and make it work."
    Is better said as: "if brand new cards dont work well for you, use broke in cards. If you miss it 80% of the time springing off the thumb, then do it off the fingers if it is more consistant that way." The former way of saying, makes an assumption which doesn't really fit the purpose of this forum. The later way of saying, is both more clear and specific and helpful. One way you lose points as a contributor. The other way you earn points for your understanding and helpful suggestions.

    Now, if you'll be so kind, I've got some practice to do. Best regards.
  8. Good luck, mate.
    Actually, I looked over the product page, and it is pretty misleading...
    It says, "Taught in intricate detail by Andrei Jikh, no detail is left out, as he guides you through the learning process each step at a time."
    I guess they forgot the details and steps that involve actually learning the spring, haha.
  9. #9 BCardician, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
    Hello Starlight !

    So sorry I didn't respond to this thread earlier. I've been so busy with school that I barely had time to sleep. Hehe, schools are getting crazier and crazier you can say.

    But let's not drift away from the subject. First of all I want to thank you for taking an interest in my effect and buying it. Thanks dude!

    Now regarding the effect. I have been practicing it for over an year now, so let me tell you what I have found that works best. If you follow these steps you'll get the effect 9/10 times. I can usually get it all of the time, but that comes with time I must say.

    1- I have found that the BEST spring used for the BT is the "Of-the-thumb" Spring. I have sent you a PM with the best method. I will also probably be posting a tutorial for how I do the spring on the internet. That will surely help out a lot of guys.

    2-NEVER, and I'll say it again, NEVER use brand new cards. The ones I found work the best are the ones that were fairly used. Between mint and crappy/old. Like a couple of weeks old deck.

    3-Play with the timing of the spring, with the pressure and also with the length of it. Different people have different styles of doing the spring, even if they are performing it using the same method. So just play around with these things.

    4-Someone said that this was best performed exposed. I'm not really fond of that idea. Always thought that not exposing the secret was best. I have always performed this as an stand alone effect. People were dumbfounded on how the hell did the card turn over. Since you mentioned this, I have also did this for people who have asked me to perform something for them on the spot. Just pulled my deck which I always have on me, did a couple of shuffles/springs to warm up and did the effect.

    5-I will tell you this. After all this time, I did not try to understand why this works, or how it works. I have a theory but that for another time. The original name for this was "The Mechanical Miracle" . Hehe, get it? Miracle?

    Other tips I have not mentioned mainly because they would reveal the method of the effect, but I will PM you regarding those. I have told this to everybody. Anyone who wants help with the move, they can contact me via PM, email(yahoo) or skype at BCardician .

    Hope you have fun with the move and if you want to see some applications to it and how far you can take it, check out my youtube channel: BCardician. You'll find the move inserted in : "Taking it further" and "Misdirection Triumph". I can talk about more of my ideas via Skype.

    Thanks again and I hope this helped you!

  10. Great advice Bizau! It goes to show that many different paths could be taken to achieve a successful execution. Bizau's advice is a testament to the fact that there is no set way of doing this technique.

    In contrast to what works for me and the advice I gave you via private message, Bizau refrains from using new decks. In addition to technique, the presentation can also vary from being a magical one, to a non magical demonstration of skill. It all depends on your style so use your discretion in all possible aspects. Point being, the video and the advice we are providing is simply a guideline to what works for our particular method of technique and presentation. I wanted to provide an alternative outline that may work for others. Bizau is the creator and as a result, had more time and experience in doing this technique - something to keep in mind.

    Lastly, to clear things up. Intermediate labels on the site typically have a prerequisite of basic sleight of hand mechanics. In order to execute a Push Off Second Deal (also intermediate), you'd first need to have a basic knowledge of card handling - or you'd have a lot of trouble. Not impossible, but certainly more difficult. Of course, we try to be as thorough as possible in everything we do, leaving very little to doubt. However, anything above labeled "easy," there can and may be some assumptions of basic fundamentals. We can and will be more observant and clear on those in future productions and descriptions. Thanks for the input! Hope the spring reference video and other additional sources helped.
  11. Hi, I bought the Balean Twist yesterday, and I have been practising it. However, every time I spring the cards, the selected card does not turn over. I'm just wondering if anyone has any tips on how I can get the card to flip over.


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