Can you credit this?

[Josh Burch]

Crediting's a big deal in magic and it has been on the back of my mind lately. There's a ton of great magic that has been created by specific magicians that is miscredited constantly.

Many of these tricks are sometimes called "old classics" when they are anything but. Here are some examples I have found and would love to see any you have found that aren't credited enough.

Dan Harlan created the linking rubber bands. There's no controversy here, it's a modern classic and Dan created the trick just about 40 years ago. There are way too many people sharing this without credit to Dan:

Derren Brown created the which hand routine. According to Derren and Andy Nyman they created it for Derren's show and now it's ubiquitous. It's hard to believe that this play is only about 15 years old in magic. If anyone has evidence to support another performer doing it before Derren I'd love to see it.

Sawing a woman in half was created 100 years ago by P.T. Selbit.

Michael Mochin's created contact juggling. According to Penn Jillette everyone just stole Michael's act and called it something new.

Steve Fearson created David Copperfield's Laser Sawing illusion. David Copperfield has exclusive rights to it and anyone else you see perform it is doing so unethically.

Cyril Takayama created the soda vanishing over the spectator's head trick and sold the exclusive rights to Justin Wllman (Cyril may release this trick publicly in the future).

Cyril is also the creator of the head dropper illusion as far as I'm aware.

The Invisible Man illusion, as performed by Justin Wllman, is a copyrighted piece of theater that cannot be presented without express permission from it's creators Daniel Martin and Brent Braun.

https://youtu.be/fu3TFib-JK4

What tricks can you think of do the creator not get enough credit for?

 

[ID4]

Michael Mochin's created contact juggling. According to Penn Jillette everyone just stole Michael's act and called it something new.

Actually Michael Moschen, called it something new himself. The term he uses is “Dynamic Manipulation”.

Cyril is also the creator of the head dropper illusion as far as I'm aware.

--Sacredness of the creation. Respect for the creator.



Allow me to finally clear up all of the confusion that is contained in this thread.

My name is Enrico de la Vega, Co-creator and Producer of "T.H.E.M. - Totally Hidden Extreme Magic" and Executive Magic Consultant to Mr. Cyril Takayama.

The effect of the illusion we call "Head Off" originated from a Japanese performing artist named Kawakami Ikuko. I'm sure most of you have already seen her presentation of the effect as it is widely available for viewing on the web. She performed the effect for a Japanese talent show called "Kinchan's Kasou Taisho" which aired on channel 4 NTV (NihonTeleVision) in 1995.

That same year, Cyril contacted both Kawakami Ikuko and NTV, the television station on which the talent show aired.

To this day, Cyril Takayama is the ONLY PERSON who has received the expressed permission of both Kawakami Ikuko and the television production company representing her to create his own version of Kawakami's "head off."

All of the above information is and has been available if any researcher has taken the time to uncover any facts.

As far as we know, Kawakami is the originator of the Head Off effect. People have claimed (and I even thought) that it is an old Vaudevillian routine, but none have produced proof of it, nor have we found any.

Sincerely,
Enrico de la Vega

 

[Josh Burch]

Actually Michael Moschen, called it something new himself. The term he uses is “Dynamic Manipulation”.

Yup, that seems about right.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I meant to reply to this. Some of your information is incorrect.

Derren Brown created the which hand routine. According to Derren and Andy Nyman they created it for Derren's show and now it's ubiquitous. It's hard to believe that this play is only about 15 years old in magic. If anyone has evidence to support another performer doing it before Derren I'd love to see it.

Conjuring Archive has references that match the "Which Hand" plot dating back to 1784, and Stuart Robson published his method for the specific Which Hand plot in 1934 and again in 1979.

Sawing a woman in half was created 100 years ago by P.T. Selbit.

Careful where you say that - thems fightin' words to some folk.

Michael Mochin's created contact juggling. According to Penn Jillette everyone just stole Michael's act and called it something new.

Contact juggling is derived from a Chinese/Japanese thing of manipulating orbs. Hundreds of years old.

Cyril Takayama created the soda vanishing over the spectator's head trick and sold the exclusive rights to Justin Wllman (Cyril may release this trick publicly in the future).

This one is actually newer than I thought it was. I can only find a reference to this method dating to 2002. While that method referenced water, I suppose one could call using soda specifically Cyril's.

The Invisible Man illusion, as performed by Justin Wllman, is a copyrighted piece of theater that cannot be presented without express permission from it's creators Daniel Martin and Brent Braun.

I suppose taking a childhood prank and sort of codifying it could count as creating something new. Also, fake-invisibility has been a staple of entertainment hypnosis for a very long time.

I don't know much about illusions so I didn't check on those.

So all that is not to say you're wrong about the issues of crediting. However it's not just cut and dry. Most things "Created" in the last century have their roots in the long and storied history of the conjuring arts. When one considers the vast amount of things that have been published it's understandable that even if one does massive research they can miss a historical method being printed. Or maybe it's something that was just mentioned in an obscure book and not elaborated upon. Or maybe as one reads they don't consciously note a method, then later it pops into their head as a solution to something they're working on.

But there's plenty of people putting material out on the market that don't actually do any research themselves. They come up with an idea and run it past their knowledgeable friends. Which means if those friends haven't seen it, they assume it's new.

 

[Josh Burch]

However it's not just cut and dry.

This is the reason I posted this, and from your comments, I'm sure we'll disagree on most of this. That's fine. There is an idea that is popular among amateur magicians that there is no beginning to magic, and that if I figure the trick out I can go and perform it. Much of the lay public has no idea that magic creators exist.

In reality, many trends and popular effects become popular or trendy with the help of one or two magicians. It IS cut and dry MUCH of the time.

Professionals understand this. That is why when David Copperfield whisks away a cloth he credits Jonathan Pendragon with the technique that he uses. To an amateur, it seems inconsequential but to someone like David Copperfield he can see the differences, and he can see their significance.

The lineage of these pieces is fairly clear and well known. Perhaps I could have been more specific, but the information is accurate over all.

Conjuring Archive has references that match the "Which Hand" plot dating back to 1784, and Stuart Robson published his method for the specific Which Hand plot in 1934 and again in 1979.

For this particular effect popularized would have been a better choice of words. No one was doing it. Then Derren did it to open his show years ago, and all of a sudden everyone started doing their own version. The market is now saturated and it's pretty clearly Derren's influence that started it.

Careful where you say that - thems fightin' words to some folk.

No, this is not disputed. P.T. Selbit created the sawing in half, patented it, and was ripped off by Goldin, Blackstone, and many many others.

Contact juggling is derived from a Chinese/Japanese thing of manipulating orbs. Hundreds of years old.

While some moves originated earlier, the use of a crystal ball, the number of balls used, and the focus on illusion were what earned Michael Moschen MacArthur Fellowship Award or "Genius Award" for that act. That award is given to individuals who show "extraordinary originality and dedication in their creative pursuits". His act was a landmark act and started a whole branch of juggling we now call contact juggling.

James Ernest wrote the first book on contact juggling in the 90's and coined the term then as well.

This one is actually newer than I thought it was. I can only find a reference to this method dating to 2002. While that method referenced water, I suppose one could call using soda specifically Cyril's.

The routine is Cyril's. Cyril used soda which if you are familiar with the method used for water, it does not translate to many liquids (Coke included). The addition of healing the can within the context of the routine is also Cyril's (Cyril uses Anders Moden's method with his permission). He sold this routine to Justin Willman.

I suppose taking a childhood prank and sort of codifying it could count as creating something new. Also, fake-invisibility has been a staple of entertainment hypnosis for a very long time.

Your characterization of this effect is entirely inaccurate. It is a theatrical piece of magic and was created from the ground up as such. It has little resemblance to hypnosis induced invisibility.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Wait, so your argument is that we should be more concerned with crediting, but only to the point where it got popular?

Yeah, I suppose I would disagree with that. You can't say we need to be more concerned with crediting and then stop crediting when you find the one or two folks who made it popular. That's hypocritical.

Contact Juggling is another name for Object Manipulation, something that has been in the circus world for a very long time. You cited Moschen's MacAuthor grant - which he received in 1990. 5 years after this was recorded:

You may notice some similarities in Moschen's work and the Rhythmic Gymnastics world, too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythmic_gymnastics - which has been an Olympic Sport since 1984 and stems from ideas from ..

Rhythmic gymnastics grew out of the ideas of Jean-Georges Noverre (1727–1810), François Delsarte (1811–1871), and Rudolf Bode (1881–1970),

Moschen's very talented and he did develop quite a few things, but he didn't create it. Also, side note, he's been quoted saying that there's no such thing as an attractive female juggler so I really don't care if he thinks he created the art.

No, this is not disputed. P.T. Selbit created the sawing in half, patented it, and was ripped off by Goldin, Blackstone, and many many others.

My comment was a joke, referring to controversy.

Your characterization of this effect is entirely inaccurate. It is a theatrical piece of magic and was created from the ground up as such. It has little resemblance to hypnosis induced invisibility.

My point is that they created that specific choreography/blocking/etc. not the idea itself. I've played party games where someone is "invisible" and everyone has to ignore him. I've played pranks on people where I got a whole room to ignore a single person and set it up like they were invisible.

The idea of using a group of people to pretend that one person is invisible is not new. Only the specific way they did it is original.

And, as I said, if you're going to worry about crediting I really think all the credits should be considered, not just when whatever it is became popular.

 

[Josh Burch]

Wait, so your argument is that we should be more concerned with crediting, but only to the point where it got popular?

No, that's not it at all. In my view you are pointing at wagons, and trains, and saying, "See, that's an automobile!"

Yeah, I suppose I would disagree with that. You can't say we need to be more concerned with crediting and then stop crediting when you find the one or two folks who made it popular. That's hypocritical.

We generally ignore his innovation, which is the reason I started this thread in the first place.

From the The Ministry of Manipulation

"The following are accredited to Moschen:

Palm Circle Isolations
Snakes and trains
7 ball “Moschen Transfers”
Isolating 1 ball through 4 ball pyramid manipulations e.g. isolated thumb-lifts
The Butterfly – However half butterflies, the cradle hold and head rolls [a butterfly on the head] existed previously.

Each of these is a fundamental concept, representing not just one move but a whole family of moves."

Contact Juggling is another name for Object Manipulation, something that has been in the circus world for a very long time.

No, this is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. Are you going to claim that other object manipulation such as dice stacking and pen spinning are contact juggling as well? Is the Kindama, or Rubik's cube also contact juggling?

Moschen's very talented and he did develop quite a few things, but he didn't create it.

There are two camps in the juggling community regarding Michael Moschen and contact juggling. Michael Moschen, Penn Jillette, and I believe that the only reason contact juggling (dynamic motion) is so popular today is because parts of the juggling community took Michael Moschen's act, used his moves and called it something else. There are dissenters, but I see very little to suggest that contact juggling would even be a thing if we Michael Moschen never hit the scene. We'd still call it rhythm gymnastics or canon ball juggling but we don't. We call it contact juggling based on the term coined in the book that outlines much of Michael Moschen's act without Moschen's permission.

Also, side note, he's been quoted saying that there's no such thing as an attractive female juggler so I really don't care if he thinks he created the art.

This is Ad Hominem and does not help your argument.