Cardistry - What's The Point?

[CaseyRudd]

Hey guys! It's been a while since I've started a thread (away from SNCs and New Releases).

I brought my cards to school today to do some cardistry in my free time. After finishing work, I would bust them out and practice the new moves from Genesis v2 , and other moves. As I was in the midst of doing some of them, my friend Anthony asked me, "What's the point in that?". I responded "It's called Cardistry. It means art with playing cards. To me it helps my dexterity and looks really freaking cool." I did the Shapeshifter Sequence (On Genesis v2) and he responded with "You're right man, that does look pretty sick! I could never do that!".

Later on in the class i had found that he had taken my deck (he sits next to me) and was trying to recreate my moves by twisting a packet around his fingers with one hand. He was on the right track, but he dropped the cards on the desk and failed miserably .

So my question is this. What's the point in doing Cardistry? Why do you do it? What are your motives behind all of it? It would be awesome to hear what you guys respond with!

 

[Sam Green]

What an excellent thread and a question I've been pondering for quite some time. I'm not a hardcore flourisher but I do flourish, and when I have a deck in my hands it's literally all I do. I try not to but it's such a habit and it's just so rewarding. I'd much rather learn useful sleights that will expand my card magic repertoire, but I find myself with Sybil for company instead.

 

[Luis Vega]

More to be on shape in dexterity...but lately I want to create an XCM performance for my show...and table-hopping...

 

[RDChopper]

It means art with playing cards. !

Just a point here: CARDISTRY IS NOT ART.

With that aside, I pretty mucho practice flourishes because I lke them, it helps me to get time to past by and I would admit that to show off a little bit.

 

[CaseyRudd]

Just a point here: CARDISTRY IS NOT ART.

With that aside, I pretty mucho practice flourishes because I lke them, it helps me to get time to past by and I would admit that to show off a little bit.

Cardistry IS art. It combines the words "Card" and "Artist". The way the cards move is however you want them to be, and to me and almost everyone else in the community would think the same.

Would you also think Magic itself isn't an art either? You're also playing with cards. For example, a fan or a spread when asking them to pick a card. They've never seen anything like it, and to them it looks stunning and amazing. Cardistry IS art, it just depends on how you interpret it.

 

[RDChopper]

Cardistry IS art. It combines the words "Card" and "Artist". The way the cards move is however you want them to be, and to me and almost everyone else in the community would think the same.

I respectifully disagree Casey.

First of all, just because the word "art" is included in the word "cardistry" doesnt makes it "art". Second, the word "cardistry" exists long before T11 started using it as another way to call flourishes. "cardistry" is the name of a magic book explaining impromptu magic with cards written by paul gordon. Link here:

http://www.asmagia.com/cardistry-by-paul-gordon-book-p-3423.html.

I might sound naive and harsh, but I really hate that the word "art" is throwed like candy here in the forums, let me be clear. . "Cardistry" is not art.

While it is quite difficult to me to explain what "Art" is, let me at least explain why Cardistry isn't art.

Cardistry, doesn't evoke any feeling at all, doesn't transmit a message, yes it is stylish and some times beatiful, but beauty and style doesn't define ART.

The only feeling that cardistry evokes would me amasement. But that is it.

And don't use the argument of "Well we can use sad music to acompany my routine and that would give it a meaning right?" because it doesn't. The only thing sad and giving the message is the song, not the cardistry. Take that away, and you are left with a guy juggling cards.

In other words if you want to say that "Cardistry" is art, is like saying that doing tricks with a yoyo is art, or playing skillfully YuGiOh is art. Get my meaning?

I am not dissing "cardistry" , I'm just pointing a fact. Excuse me if I sound rude, but I don't expect some of the Fanboys here to actually read what I wrote and take that into consideration.

Let the pointless bashing against me begin :3.

P.S I hope you guys don't take this in the wrong way, is not my intention to directly offend any of you.

 

[Slicke]

Well i just recently started learning cardistry after 4-5 years of learning magic ... mainly with cards and other small close-up items. Basically i just wanna make what i do "look" good, i wanna show that when I'm holding a deck, it's not like the others who learned their tricks from Youtube or anywhere else (because if u didn't realize, when you approach a total stranger and ask them if they wanna see some card tricks/magic, they are like ..."not another trick that take hours to get done") .I just like to show-off but is that not what cardistry is all about ... ?

 

[RDChopper]

By the way, I strongly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Aesthetics-Philosophy-Art-Tradition-Anthologies/dp/1405105828

to anyone interested in this kind of stuff

 

[chriswiehl]

its a show off fun thing to do to make you look cool. kinda like yoyoing. its neat but no one really cares

 

[BenTCM]

i just like doing fancy false cuts. other than that I never do cardistry. i try to to do it too often because people will automatically think u just have "fast hands".

 

[saborfang17]

Honestly?

Because I want to. And I can. No offense, but whenever threads like this are posted, it makes me wonder why the hell all of you guys need some motivation or reason to do any little thing in life.

EDIT: Sorry, despite the fact that my post may come across as harsh, I still stand by the meaning I intended it to have - if you want to do something, why not? Why does everything have to have a REASON (besides wanting to) to do something?

Just a thought.

@Casey: Tell him you want to. If he doesn't like it, too damn bad for him. Most of the time laymen ask you these questions (as a teenager, anyway) is so that they look cool attempting to call you out - just tell him to go ask someone else a question they don't need an answer to. There is rarely an actual curiousity behind it, or atleast, behind the actual motive of the question.

 

[AdamF]

Because it is fun and I enjoy it.

 

[timsilva]

@RD - You make some valid points but that's not a substantial argument enough to negate cardistry as an artform.

The word art, due to our poorly constructed language, is highly subjective. Under some definitions of the word, cardistry is art, and under others, cardistry isn't art.

I tend to go with the more broad definitions such as "art is communication," or "art is creation." These are more inclusive and the accept that almost anything can be considered art, which isn't really good or bad regardless of how we feel about it.

I do agree with you that just because the word "art" appears in cardistry, it doesn't make what we do art. However, I challenge your overall statement. Under most relevant definitions of the word "art" which includes music, drawings, film, etc, cardistry should just as well be in that list.

It is a visual art form, it can be used as performance art, and there absolutely are aesthetics and philosophies behind the movement and rhythm of flourishes.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you nor I (or anyone for that matter), can truly take an authoritative stance on whether or not cardistry or XCM is art because everything its all relative and opinions are subjective; especially within the limitations of an outdated/ambiguous language like English.




--

With that said, I flourish because it relaxes me and it allows my time and my practice to be something that I can monitor and watch evolve. Also, some others can appreciate the amount of work and dedication that goes into the development of these moves. There is a degree of ego satisfaction that I get from performing it for others along with other healthy social benefits that come with having a relatively unique skill-set that the average person is unfamiliar with.

It helps to keep me inspired. Life is too short to not stop and smell the roses (and play with pieces of paper as an art form for fun.)

 

[Aaron.Williams]

Honestly?

Because I want to. And I can. No offense, but whenever threads like this are posted, it makes me wonder why the hell all of you guys need some motivation or reason to do any little thing in life.

EDIT: Sorry, despite the fact that my post may come across as harsh, I still stand by the meaning I intended it to have - if you want to do something, why not? Why does everything have to have a REASON (besides wanting to) to do something?

Just a thought.

@Casey: Tell him you want to. If he doesn't like it, too damn bad for him. Most of the time laymen ask you these questions (as a teenager, anyway) is so that they look cool attempting to call you out - just tell him to go ask someone else a question they don't need an answer to. There is rarely an actual curiousity behind it, or atleast, behind the actual motive of the question.

Strangely, this does make sense. Everything doesn't have to have a deep, intellectual, thought-provoking meaning. Why not just do it because it's fun, it looks cool, and it's unique. I mean seriously, how often do you walk down the street and see someone singing or playing a guitar. And how often do you see someone who's doing this amazing, impressive thing with cards that you've never seen before. (Well, a layperson).

 

[saborfang17]

Strangely, this does make sense. Everything doesn't have to have a deep, intellectual, thought-provoking meaning. Why not just do it because it's fun, it looks cool, and it's unique. I mean seriously, how often do you walk down the street and see someone singing or playing a guitar. And how often do you see someone who's doing this amazing, impressive thing with cards that you've never seen before. (Well, a layperson).

It just bugs me that magicians have to see everything MOTIVATED. If everything required motivation to the extent magicians expect when giving feedback on someone else's work - why's the magic motivated? 99.9% of the time, I can guarantee you, magic will have no outright motivation (if not 100% - I've yet to see a case where the point of doing the trick WAS, so theoretically it'll always be 99.9%).

 

[RDChopper]

Tim, first of all thank you for the well stated opinion.

Using this as a base to debate I would like to add a opinion on this as well:

I tend to go with the more broad definitions such as "art is communication," or "art is creation." These are more inclusive and the accept that almost anything can be considered art, which isn't really good or bad regardless of how we feel about it.

Taking what you said into consideration, apparently in the english lenguage the word "Art" has two different meanings.

One of them being the one that I strongly defend, the one where I am saying that "cardistry" lacks a lot of elements that would lets us to truly believe that it is art.

Let's take music for example:

According to Christian Caballero who wrote "introduction to music" (wich is a book that it is studied in a lot of musical institutes that I know of) the author explains that a song in order to be considered "art" must require the following things.

Original:This one is obvious, while it is kinda hard to make something completely "original" these days, one of the things require to something to be called art, is that it has to be created, trying to be as original as possible. But the simple fact that you are creating something gives you merit. Whenever it is new or not. All the people that sing songs that are not theirs are considered "Interpreters" not "Artists". In this case, about 75% of the total cardistry community would be called "Interpreters" not artists. And yes, to some degree the people that create these new concepts on flourishing could called (based on this sole point) Artists.

Being non-commercial: Another point considering wherever a song is art or not, is the purpose given to said song. If a song is created with the purpose of making money (or cardistry wise, calling attention to yourself), it loses his whole "Artistic" value. A song must have the purpose of expressing something, either a message, a story, a feeling, a mood. Something. If it is egoistical reasons (like in a lot of cases with cardistry) it loses (as I said) his "Artistic" value.

It must transmit something: here is my main point of why I don't consider "Flourishes" art, no matter how skillful, beatiful, stylish, whatever, you are not expressing anything with flourishes. I know that there are flourishes that look delicate and beatiful, or strong and rough; but as I said before, these things do not define art. You cannot share a message, or tell a story, a feeling or a mood through flourishes.

So in a very overall explanation, that to me is art. In the other hand, using the example that you gave, looks like the word "art" is also used in the english lenguage when something is skillfully and graciously performed, like in this case "Cardistry" or like you said, the art of good communication, or being good picking up women, or being good at drinking.

If this is the case, then yeah, if this is the way "Art' is used when refering to cardistry, then yeah. I agree. My beef is that people tend to confuse these terms and want to bring "Cardistry" to the level where Music, Literature, Theater, Painting, etc are.
,

 

[RDChopper]

Here is my prediction. Someone will post back something along the following lines.

"We create stuff, we express or passion for the art through our flourishes, and we share this experience with people, therefore this is art".

I'm just having fun :3

 

[MagicNinja]

Good question there. I don't even do flourishes and I'm hoping I'll learn how somewhere in the future. But to me the point of doing flourishes. It just looks cool. It basically gets your audiences attention and you can also do magic. So flourishes basically just make you look more awesome to me.

 

[Andrei]

...According to Christian Caballero who wrote "introduction to music" (wich is a book that it is studied in a lot of musical institutes that I know of) the author explains that a song in order to be considered "art" must require the following things.

Original:This one is obvious, while it is kinda hard to make something completely "original" these days, one of the things require to something to be called art, is that it has to be created, trying to be as original as possible. But the simple fact that you are creating something gives you merit. Whenever it is new or not. All the people that sing songs that are not theirs are considered "Interpreters" not "Artists". In this case, about 75% of the total cardistry community would be called "Interpreters" not artists. And yes, to some degree the people that create these new concepts on flourishing could called (based on this sole point) Artists.

Being non-commercial: Another point considering wherever a song is art or not, is the purpose given to said song. If a song is created with the purpose of making money (or cardistry wise, calling attention to yourself), it loses his whole "Artistic" value. A song must have the purpose of expressing something, either a message, a story, a feeling, a mood. Something. If it is egoistical reasons (like in a lot of cases with cardistry) it loses (as I said) his "Artistic" value.

It must transmit something: here is my main point of why I don't consider "Flourishes" art, no matter how skillful, beatiful, stylish, whatever, you are not expressing anything with flourishes. I know that there are flourishes that look delicate and beatiful, or strong and rough; but as I said before, these things do not define art. You cannot share a message, or tell a story, a feeling or a mood through flourishes.

So in a very overall explanation, that to me is art. In the other hand, using the example that you gave, looks like the word "art" is also used in the english lenguage when something is skillfully and graciously performed, like in this case "Cardistry" or like you said, the art of good communication, or being good picking up women, or being good at drinking.

If this is the case, then yeah, if this is the way "Art' is used when refering to cardistry, then yeah. I agree. My beef is that people tend to confuse these terms and want to bring "Cardistry" to the level where Music, Literature, Theater, Painting, etc are.
,

Pure and simple answer is, Cardistry is just as much of an art as music - at the end of the day, we are all biased and have our own self serving little guidelines on how we define art. However, I'd like to address this using your own parameters of what defines art.

Cardistry most certainly is original, despite a minority being original creators; nonetheless, we both agree.

Commercial - I have to call you out on this one - Cardistry is for "calling attention to oneself", that's a pretty harsh and flawed statement! 99% of the Cardistry videos that are released on the internet (and Cardistry in public) is shown and practiced without the intention of profiting. The majority of the music industry's products are sold on CDs, Itunes, and other mediums. I guarantee you that music artists spend much time contemplating with regards to selling their work (and some with the sole purpose of doing so), is it no longer art?

"It must transmit something" - there is your biggest assumption you've made thus far. Who says Cardistry cannot tell a story? You? Is this new found knowledge obtained because of your thorough expertise in Cardistry? Or is it an assumption because in your limited lifetime of seeing Cardistry, you have never seen this done? If you or I have not seen it done, does this mean it CANNOT be done? I STRONGLY disagree. However, let's ignore what I just said and take it in a different direction. Emotion does not always necessarily have to be portrayed as a performance, it can also be a process within creation. For example, when I created Imposybil (sybil with fans), I felt anger and frustration in my personal life, the same emotion applies to Bullet. There are many emotions portrayed when we create in life, and these emotions do not have to be on display for your interpretation. I may look at a painting and not understand a thing nor will it evoke any emotions out of me other than sheer appreciation, does this mean it's not art? Of course not - the emotions were infused within the process of creating that piece of work and THAT is why Cardistry is indeed an art.

 

[Andrei]

Here is my prediction. Someone will post back something along the following lines.

"We create stuff, we express or passion for the art through our flourishes, and we share this experience with people, therefore this is art".

I'm just having fun :3

Good job, you predicted it because I've said it before; however, if you had anything to say to address that point, you would have covered it in your original posts. I doubt you do.

I understand "it's all in good fun" but it's no fun for me to see someone with a limited amount of knowledge toss around their opinions trying to educate the public on why my life's work is not art. Most definitely NOT fun for me.

Imagine how people would respond if I showed up to an art gallery telling people that none of their work evokes any emotion out of me, I don't care for any of it, and it only "looks cool" therefore it is not art. How would they respond? "All in good fun guys"... yea, don't think it would go over too well.