Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by wZEnigma, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. Hey guys,

    I'd like to start getting involved in the cardistry community. I hope we can find something that Decknique was. Maybe we can try something.

    Cards + Artistry = Cardistry.

    Art with cards.

    Maybe we could do some sort of video montage showcasing true art with cards, beholding cardistry as a true art form and not just flashy card stuff.

    Also, if anyone could point me in a general starting direction, that'd be great. I know basic flourishes and a few two-handed cuts, but that's about it. I can do some Sybil variations, and that's about as complex as it gets.


  2. Do you mean like a piece of art, like a sculpture or a collage with cards, or just flourishing, xcm, etc.?
  3. Flourishing but making art. The Werm would be the best example of what I'm talking about.

  4. Oh. OK.

    Can we debate about whether flourishing is an art?
  5. Well, sure, but first let's define the boundaries between flourishing and cardistry.

    Flourishing - the act of manipulating playing cards to demonstrate skill.
    Cardistry - the act of manipulating playing cards to create a work of art.

    The technical definitions are:

    Flourish - a showy gesture
    There is no solid definition for "cardistry", as it's more of an idiom.


  6. I'm up for it, as long as it stays civil.

    Could you give your definition for "art" please?
  7. My proposed topic is:

    "Cardistry is an art."

    If you'd like to change it go ahead, but I'd like to argue against the topic.
  8. if xcm is not an art form what is it? it's just like painting... instead of a pen we use cards. music is an art... some one creates something and share it with the world ... or just does it for him self and plays some music on a guitar at home... xcm is the same just with cards...
    in my opinium^^
    and actually there is no difference between flourishing and cardistry or xcm.. its al the same just different names... because u always say "it's a flourish" but what would u say if there is a difference and it is a cardistry move?^^
  9. Hey wZEnigma, the basic flourish you should know right now are:
    -Revolution Cut
    -Charlier Cut

    If you can do all four, then Dangerous Motion by Daniel Madison is the best way to go, or the Trilogy by Dan and Dave Buck. It really depends on what is your style.
  10. SK: Yeah, I'm familiar with all of those flourishes.

    Let's continue the debate!

  11. From what I see is that you are talking about displays. Things like the w.e.r.m, The Full Nelson, 7 sax, so forth. Where during the flourish the flourisher pauses to show an arrangement of cards that make a shape. This isn't anything new so I don't understand what you are talking about so far
  12. Ok debate time.
    Topic: "Cardistry is an art"

    Cardistry: The manipulation of playing cards into different forms.
    (if you disagree with this definition of Cardistry, give another one)

    Art: Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way to affect the emotions.
    (taken from wikipedia, though I omitted two words, because I thought the definition was innacurate. If you disagree with this definition of art, give us another one)

    To say that Cardistry is an Art, is to say that the deliberate arrangement of the elements of playing cards in certain ways affects the emotions.

    To be able to affect a person's emotion with art,

    the piece you have created needs to portray emotion(s)
    the piece you have created needs to be purely aesthetic.

    I don't believe that cardistry fulfils either of these two criteria, therefore, I do not believe cardistry is an art.
  13. #13 canadamagic, Apr 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2010
    How does cardistry not portrey emotions?

    It depends on the person, for example some art pieces that I have seen just look like some one threw 2 gallons of paint at the canvas and hoped for the best. That to me doesn't seem like art in the least.

    As well people could look at cardistry and think, "oh people can twirl cards with their hands, thats so cool. " Though when you ask other people they wonder how you cannot think it is an art.

    People will interpret pieces differently than others so saying that art has to bring out emotion cannot be an acurate deffinition because not everyone has the same interpritation.
  14. I'm not even going to bother debating modernism, post modernism or minimalism here. Let's just discount your "random paint splatters". Don't criticize what you can't understand.

    The example of "The Werm" was given before. What emotion is being portrayed when one does "The Werm"?

    I'll give an example now of the piece "The Scream" by Edvard Munch. One can easily see the emotion of "Fear" being portrayed. If you wanted to look into it further, you can see madness, confusion, anger, etc.

    As hard as I try, even comparing so called, "aggressive" flourishes like Andrei Jikh's Bullet, or "powerful" flourishes such as the anaconda dribble or the card spring, I don't get the feeling of aggression or power. It's purely superficial.
  15. #15 Andrei, Apr 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2010
    Cardistry is an art, it is the product of human creativity, the hands, cards, and it most definitely involves emotion. Yes, performing bullet is not exactly a portrayal of emotion; however, the creation process was nothing less than a flurry of emotions.

    Bullet was a move created when I experienced anger, Infinity was power and control, Imposybil - perhaps arrogance and optimism. The display of emotions is not necessarily always through performance, although Cardistry can be utilized in that regard as well - the same way the shadow puppets in Cirque Du Soleil's KA evokes adoration, awe, and love. Imagine that instead of shadow puppets, the character takes you on a journey of complexity and frustration using just his hands and cards. More specifically, imagine the character displaying an array of cards as he looks down with shock at his creation - as if the cards possessed him. The possibilities are endless.

    After gazing at a strange painting, I sometimes feel confused yet I reserve complete judgement until fully understanding the creation process which is essential to more than just the audience. Perhaps you are right, we should not criticize what we do not understand. ;)
  16. Finally a tangible answer on this subject.

    I don't consider what i'm doing as criticizm. I'm questioning because I don't understand and because I want to understand.

    Andrei gave the perfect answer. The creative process of throwing paint against a canvas might have been done in anger, or in sadness, or in grief, or in arrogance, and in understanding the creative process, you draw the emotion from it.

    I've never thought to apply this to cardistry. Most creative processes that I've seen people do to create new flourishes are taking a move from their repetoire and trying to vary it and link it to other moves in their repetoire. Pure superficiality.

    Never before have I seen people, or even heard of people let their emotions and inspirations flow and channel it into their card manipulation.

    Nor did I think this was possible.

    Andrei, if this truly is your creative process, I now consider you a true artist. To be able to encapsulate emotions in a way that is true to the artist is my aim of art.

    To think that there are people who take this process is an mind opener for me.

    I think I now somewhat have a grasp on how much work and thought you put behind all your flourishes.

    I've never looked at cardistry this way, and now I finally understand what Bone Ho was talking about in the Anaconda DVD. I think.

    You've just completely altered my perspective on cardistry and art, and for that, I thank you greatly.

    Thank you so much for sharing your process with us. I respect you so much now.

    I wish you the best for your further endeavours.

    In much awe,
  17. If you can find in my post where I criticized art I will be happy to apologize. I did not at all criticize another persons art form at all, you should read before you accuse.

    There are some art pieces that I don't understand as again I already said. You didn't understand cardistry until maybe an hour ago, so how can you judge another persons perspective. As I already said it depends on the person, some people feel what other people don't or maybe in a different way.
  18. Since view is extremely tolerant, I just looked at that sentance in a different way to the way you processed it, so that's all good.

    You still haven't answered my question about the w.e.r.m. and what emotion is being portrayed.
  19. - To say that Cardistry is an Art, is to say that the deliberate arrangement of the elements of playing cards in certain ways affects the emotions. -

    what the ****?! cardistry is art! in my opinium the best! its art, no more no less... so wha do u still debate on this? it's 100 % clear that is art... everybody says that... braint udor... andrej... e.t.c

    and to the thing with the werm? if there is no emotion in a flourish... who cares? it just looks got maybe t has an emotion in it that we don't understand... art means to be creativ ... no more not less so stop to ****ing talk about **** like emotions and just do the flourish's and be creativ so and stop ruining this wonderfull artform with some bull**** like that. and i think not every flourhish should have an "emotion" like u call it (like the agressiv style in bullet) but how u perform it with other flourishes should give an emotion...

    sorry for my words but people like theatrehead make me sick -.-
  20. I can't tell you what emotion is being portrayed in the w.e.r.m, I know that you and I wouldn't look at it the same way so there would be no sense in explaining. What emotions I see will be different with than yours.

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