Diagonal Palm Shift or 2nd deal?

Dec 9, 2011
15
0
Which, in your opinion is better. It would be appreciated greatly if you could also say why, and which is easier.

Thanks,

-Mirage

EDIT: Sorry- I basically want to know which is better, but I'd also like to know which you find easier.
 
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Jul 13, 2008
383
0
First off, you need to clarify what you're asking. Are you asking which is better or which is easier? There's a big difference. Secondly, which second deal are you referring to? The strike, for me, is significantly easier than the push off, but that's just my opinion. Thirdly, these two sleights accomplish completely different things. The diagonal palm shift puts a card into palm during the smooth, fluid motion of inserting a card in the deck. The second deal makes it so you can deal the second card from the top of the deck without disturbing the top card. This is useful for poker demonstrations, any card at any numbers tricks, and so on. I use both sleights independently and together at times. In my view, however, these two moves cannot be compared, as they are so different in what they accomplish.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
2
Exactly what Magic Master said. The two really can't be compared because they do completely different things. It is more common to compare the side steal with the DPS but even that is a cagey comparison. One palms the card into the right hand, the other into the left hand. You want to do card to Pocket or card to wallet then the question isn't which is better but which pocket do you put your wallet in.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,249
3
Back in Time
2nd Deal. There is a ton of things magically and non magically that can be done with the 2nd deal. The DPS is really something that I don't think you'd get much use out of, if any.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
2
2nd Deal. There is a ton of things magically and non magically that can be done with the 2nd deal. The DPS is really something that I don't think you'd get much use out of, if any.

Shocked by that statement.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,961
1,096
Utah
I use the diagonal palm shift all the time. Why do you want to learn them? They are 2 very different moves, and I can't think of very many effects where they'd be interchangeable. Why compare them?

Which is better a control or a false deal? I don't know if there is an answer for that.
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
Easy things are never worth doing. What are you planning to do with those moves? you give us nothing to help you with.

This is the statement I am shocked by. I guess I better give up my double lift then. Too easy I suppose.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,354
1
30
Grand prairie TX
This is the statement I am shocked by. I guess I better give up my double lift then. Too easy I suppose.

Easy? hell no. Everyone needs to work on their double lift. I've seen terribly handled double lifts in so many videos its not funny. They make holding a "single" playing card look so awkward.
And my statement rings true in many aspects. Having the easy way does not make one a better person. Challenges and pushing ourselves to be better than yesterday does.
 
Dec 9, 2011
15
0
If I could clarify- both are clearly useful moves. However, I believe it only makes sense to, for now, concentrate my energy on learning only one, so what I'm essentially asking is If You Could Only Ever Use One, Which Would It Be?

Sorry if this is hard to explain what exactly I am asking. I can't give you more about my style because I'm not sure yet- I haven't settled on anything.

Thanks,

-Mirage
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 26, 2007
592
5
Tokyo, Japan
Jason England would disagree with you on that.

I've already mentioned that the 2nd deal is a lot more versatile than the DPS. But hey, whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

You said that the OP would not get much use out of the DPS. In that one statement, you assumed you knew everything about his presentation style, his approach to close-up magic, the venues and situations that he will be performing in, and the type of magic he is interested in. Now, if he was debating the dps vs the double lift, then your statement might have some weight to it, but outright saying that he would not get much use out of the DPS, making the second deal a better purchase, is absurd. You can of course voice your opinion on the subject, but do not presume to think you know all about the original poster and or the possibilities with each move. I have been performing magic for well over 10 years now and by far use the DPS more than the second deal, as I do more standing and strolling magic than I do tabled magic. THIS of course does not also mean that the 2nd deal can only be used in a sitted situation (preemptively defending the assumption you were about to make).

So in any case, your "mention" that the 2nd deal is a lot more versatile, is your opinion, and not a God-given statement of absolute truth, thus a misleading statement to people who lack the experience to judge for themselves which will be more useful and versatile in their magic career.

Anyway, back to the OPs original question. Learning the second deal gives you a good understanding of a long-standing and solid sleight, which in-turn, will also provide you with a good substitute to things like the top steal, double lift, and need for controls. The dps on the other hand, in my opinion, has more immediate applications when done well (which does take a lot of time). It has a more motivating method then a standard 2nd deal, and will look more natural when performing standing up, as it will seem to be more in place than say, doing a poker like deal while standing up. A 2nd however, the dps can also be substituted by many other sleights, as well as the 2nd deal.

In the end, its personal preference, but you will get a lot out of either, and in the future you will be able to judge which one you will end up using more. For me, I use the DPS quite a bit, and only use the 2nd deal when messing around with poker demonstrations, etc...

Eric
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
2
If I could clarify- both are clearly useful moves. However, I believe it only makes sense to, for now, concentrate my energy on learning only one, so what I'm essentially asking is If You Could Only Ever Use One, Which Would It Be?

Thanks,

-Mirage
I'd agree with most of what Tokyo mentioned. as for your clarification....well I don't think it was enough of a clarification. The thing is, if you were to tell me you main interest lay in table magic and gambling demos then you will get more use out of a good second deal. If you are a general magician who will be standing and doing walkaround magic, then the DPS will probably take the case. Dps can be used not just as a palm but also as a holdout while spectators are shuffling a pack, it can be used as a control as well. More to the point, the basic mechanics of the DPS have been used in a multitude of other ways, from multiple shifts, to palms into the off hand. So for a classic magician that is a more useful move.

As for time investment, it will probably take you several months at least before your DPS is passable to a layman. It will take you years more to master. A good 2nd may take you over a year to get by a laymen and decades to master. So in the end....are you really going to focus on just one move until you get it down before moving onto the next? Start learning both now. If you sit down and practice for over an hour a day you can certainly take the time to devote some serious focused effort on both moves.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,354
1
30
Grand prairie TX
So in any case, your "mention" that the 2nd deal is a lot more versatile, is your opinion, and not a God-given statement of absolute truth,

The DPS is simply used to control a card, thats all it does. there are tons of card controls out there.
The 2nd deal allows you to peek at and control whatever cards that come up in the course of a deal as you see fit.
There are tons of applications for it.
Gambling demo and magic tricks alike.
So by definition it is more versatile than DPS.
But as i stated before, he NEVER gave us any hint as to what the heck kind of shows he performs or what style he has. How are we supposed to recommend anything? He pretty much asked as 2ndVSdps question.
 
Sep 26, 2007
592
5
Tokyo, Japan
The DPS is simply used to control a card, thats all it does. there are tons of card controls out there.
The 2nd deal allows you to peek at and control whatever cards that come up in the course of a deal as you see fit.
There are tons of applications for it.
Gambling demo and magic tricks alike.
So by definition it is more versatile than DPS.
But as i stated before, he NEVER gave us any hint as to what the heck kind of shows he performs or what style he has. How are we supposed to recommend anything? He pretty much asked as 2ndVSdps question.

If you think the DPS' only function is to control a card, you are thinking way too small. You can use the DPS as a color change, can DPS from the top of the deck, can DPS more than one card, can DPS from a small packet of cards, etc... Nothing says you have to replace the card immediately after performing the DPS.

I just gave you a lot of freebies. Put in your own effort to truly think how the DPS can be utilized to its fullest potential before making naive statements that DPS is ONLY used to control a card.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,354
1
30
Grand prairie TX
If you think the DPS' only function is to control a card, you are thinking way too small. You can use the DPS as a color change, can DPS from the top of the deck, can DPS more than one card, can DPS from a small packet of cards, etc... Nothing says you have to replace the card immediately after performing the DPS.

I just gave you a lot of freebies. Put in your own effort to truly think how the DPS can be utilized to its fullest potential before making naive statements that DPS is ONLY used to control a card.

MANY other card controls can be used for the same reason. and repeating that you can DPS multiple cards doesn't add to the list of versatility. you're still controlling cards.
Im not saying its useless. im saying there are tons of controls that can do the same thing.
2nd deal is its own unique self.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,961
1,096
Utah
All of this junk about one being "better" than the other is a waste of space.

This is about like asking which is better a Ford or a 2006 Corola.

You should probably have a couple good controls in your aresenal. The DPS could be worked into thousands of card effects. It is a good control. It's easy to palm a card while doing it, you can glimpse the card selected easily after controlling it and you can work it into just about any pick a card effect.

The second deal is totally different. You need to have a surface to deal on, you also need to control the cards needed before you do the deal. You should have a second deal in your arsenal too.

I think you should learn both for sure. I can see more immediate applications that come from the DPS though. I mean how many magic books do you read that say "...now execute your favorite second deal..."? There's probably one out there but I've never seen it.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,354
1
30
Grand prairie TX
no one is arguing so much as which one is "better". just which one has more applications or viable uses for the threadstarter.
But the thread starter has given nothing for us to suggest on. He gives no idea as to how or what he performs.
 
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