Does flourishing kill card magic?

[avihoffmanmagic]

I was doing some card tricks at Fantasma Magic Store in Manhattan, and I was doing some flourishes in the same routine. David Roth and Simon Lovell happened to be there, and after the performance they told me that my magic would be alot better if I did it without flourishes. They said that showing that I had skill with cards ruined the effects(to some extent), and that my mentality should be more along the lines of a cheating card gambler. What do you guys think, is Dan and Dave's approach to card magic cheapened by the fact that they do flourishes? Or is it just as powerful with flourishes as without?

 

[penguincdude]

Well it depends on the effect you're performing. If you want your spectators to think you're really magic then flourishing is probably a bad idea. If you don't want to seem actually magic but more give the "how did he get that card between those two aces" type reaction then I think flourishing is okay. It also depends on how you present it. I usually try to keep flourishing and magic separate but sometimes I put them together.

 

[MagicShadow9]

I think you should follow their advice. If you do flourishing with magic, people wont think you're a magician anymore, they'll just think you're a good card handler. "I dont know how he did that but he must have did something with his hands really fast. He's pretty good." is what people will say. As opposed to when they really think its magic, they will say "That was amazing."

So do you want "He's pretty good." or "That's amazing!"

Up to you.

Also, and i'm not trying to insult Dan and Dave here, but there's a reason why Simon Lovell and David Roth can make a living off performances while Dan and Dave only do lectures (well as far as i know, but even if they do shows, i'm sure they wouldnt use their own material).

 

[James Wise Magic]

I personally don't flourish when I perform card magic because I like my performance to me nice and fair. If cards and things are flying through the air, as a spectator, that really throws me off and I start thinking all fishy.
I flourish all the time around spectators but not when I'm performing magic.

 

[ajp500]

I think flourishing in card magic ruins it. It shows you have great slight of hand skills and takes the wonder out of the routine.

Example- If you where playing poker, you would'nt show your had and tell people you are going to win. You wouldnt go around showing you have amazing card skills and can find there card easily

 

[r.zhang]

I don't flourish while I'm doing a trick or a routine, but rather when I'm just talking to them. I do a few fancy cuts (simple stuff, not like sybils or anything) if I were to say that I'm estimating where their card is (which I think is fine), but that's about it. You'd want to make everything look completely fair. Shuffling a deck of cards and saying that it rises to the top makes no f*cking sense to me. And to clarify, Dan and Dave don't use flourishes in their magic but their magic has a flourishy style; there's a difference.

 

[ajp500]

I don't flourish while I'm doing a trick or a routine, but rather when I'm just talking to them. I do a few fancy cuts (simple stuff, not like sybils or anything) if I were to say that I'm estimating where their card is (which I think is fine), but that's about it. You'd want to make everything look completely fair. Shuffling a deck of cards and saying that it rises to the top makes no f*cking sense to me. And to clarify, Dan and Dave don't use flourishes in their magic but their magic has a flourishy style; there's a difference.

Why use "the F word" when you cant say it on fourms?? It makes no scence, its like texting someone and typing "uhhhhhhh oh yea at three o clock" when you can just type "three o clock"?

Anyways the flourshly style still makes people beilive you have alot of skill and have "fast hands". Just takes away from the performance.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

in my opinion, it's ok to perform flourish in a magic trick. But you have a aware that not to do too much flourish. Let say you do an ACR for instance, SOME revelation you can do a nice SHORT controlled flourish to reveal their card (4 Ace Sybil from Dangerous). That is acceptable, but if you try to fit something like Mayhem, or even a Pandora in between; now that is not acceptable, because it just doesn't go together. Its like a flawed in your trick and you tried to filled it up with something.

PS: listen to the latest podcast, Andrei went over this topic.

I hope this help.

 

[jok3r]

Do what makes you happy, do what you want to do.
Yes take advice from magicians who have been doing this longer then you, but do not stop doing something because they say too.

I completely disagree that it takes away from your magic.
Thats crazy, If you perform like a person who has real magically powers, and perform Mentalism. Then yes you might want to stop flourishing.
But if you like little comedy, and your chill like i am, then flourishing is great.

In the last year ive been flourishing with my magic, it hasn't change it at all.
In fact its made it better for me personally.

My real point is this, do what you want to do,, and do it well.
If you want to add flourishes in your magic, then do it.
If you dont thats cool too

 

[jok3r]

in my opinion, it's ok to perform flourish in a magic trick. But you have a aware that not to do too much flourish. Let say you do an ACR for instance, SOME revelation you can do a nice SHORT controlled flourish to reveal their card (4 Ace Sybil from Dangerous). That is acceptable, but if you try to fit something like Mayhem, or even a Pandora in between; now that is not acceptable, because it just doesn't go together. Its like a flawed in your trick and you tried to filled it up with something.

I hope this help.

I agree.

and i agree again for word count

 

[ajp500]

Do what makes you happy, do what you want to do.
Yes take advice from magicians who have been doing this longer then you, but do not stop doing something because they say too.

I completely disagree that it takes away from your magic.
Thats crazy, If you perform like a person who has real magically powers, and perform Mentalism. Then yes you might want to stop flourishing.
But if you like little comedy, and your chill like i am, then flourishing is great.

In the last year ive been flourishing with my magic, it hasn't change it at all.
In fact its made it better for me personally.

My real point is this, do what you want to do,, and do it well.
If you want to add flourishes in your magic, then do it.
If you dont thats cool too

Like i was saying before. If you do enough flourishes people will assume it has to be "fast hands". Thats why i think being fair when it comes to magic is the best way of performing magic.

I mean you can still do some basic one-handed-cuts and other differnt double under-cuts but there is a line people should not cross.

 

[jok3r]

Like i was saying before. If you do enough flourishes people will assume it has to be "fast hands". Thats why i think being fair when it comes to magic is the best way of performing magic.

I mean you can still do some basic one-handed-cuts and other differnt double under-cuts but there is a line people should not cross.

I agree with you in a way, I guess my problem is.
Well ive never had this problem, if that makes since.

Ive never had someone say he just has quick hands, and i do plenty of flourishing in magic.

 

[praetoritevong]

Given that Simon Lovell and David Roth saw your magic in person, and we're talking about it in theory here, I would take their advice.

Personally, I don't flourish during performances, and I agree with them.

Theoretically, it's arguable, though I again would not agree. There are rare exceptions to the rule. Dan and Dave are not exceptions; I have made it clear here in the past what I dislike about their magic. But there are exceptions.

But for you, I'd take that advice.

 

[visualartist]

Jesus guys.
Its so so so simple.
When performing card magic if you bust out a sybil or whatever it is that you do,the idea of "magic" leaves their head and your seen as a boy/man with fast hands.
Thats it,thats fact.
It is no longer magic if they see that.They say "oh well he is just real slick with his hands".
The notion of magic is left.

 

[praetoritevong]

Actually, in real life, it's not that simple. I agree with you, but it's not that simple.

For example: Imagine an effect where the magician poses as a professional card cheat. He goes on to demonstrate difficult moves that a card cheat may perform, including, perhaps, a quick flourishy table cut. He then offers to show the difference between a card cheat and a magician. Moving basically in slow motion, the aces are placed into the middle. Without any suspicious actions, the four top cards are turned over to reveal the four aces.

In that case, the image of fast hands can actually help you because you use it to differentiate and distinguish your magic, ironically, from sleight of hand.

This is just one exception I thought of, and there are others.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. Only the top pros can pull this sort of thing off. It requires a deep knowledge of construction of card magic beyond I think just about anyone here, certainly.

So again, I come back to my point, that - you're right, but it's not that simple, and there are exceptions. Nothing that is achievable for us yet on the face of it, but it's good to keep an open mind.

 

[visualartist]

Actually, in real life, it's not that simple. I agree with you, but it's not that simple.

For example: Imagine an effect where the magician poses as a professional card cheat. He goes on to demonstrate difficult moves that a card cheat may perform, including, perhaps, a quick flourishy table cut. He then offers to show the difference between a card cheat and a magician. Moving basically in slow motion, the aces are placed into the middle. Without any suspicious actions, the four top cards are turned over to reveal the four aces.

In that case, the image of fast hands can actually help you because you use it to differentiate and distinguish your magic, ironically, from sleight of hand.

This is just one exception I thought of, and there are others.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. Only the top pros can pull this sort of thing off. It requires a deep knowledge of construction of card magic beyond I think just about anyone here, certainly.

So again, I come back to my point, that - you're right, but it's not that simple, and there are exceptions. Nothing that is achievable for us yet on the face of it, but it's good to keep an open mind.

I actually do this quite alot.
To "explain" the difference between a cheat or card handler and a magician.
As a cheat I flourish and control the cards I want and do a reveal.Usually that Laim walsh-esque card location that he tries to pull off as magic.
Then as a magician I visually and cleanly change on card into another or the like.

 

[r.zhang]

Why use "the F word" when you cant say it on fourms?? It makes no scence, its like texting someone and typing "uhhhhhhh oh yea at three o clock" when you can just type "three o clock"?

Anyways the flourshly style still makes people beilive you have alot of skill and have "fast hands". Just takes away from the performance.

Haha, I apologize. I just wanted a way to express how angry I get when people shuffle the cards and then are trying to convince someone that it "magically" rose to the top when you can tell by the tone of their voice that they don't believe it themselves. In that sense, there's nothing magical about it. I should've found a way to express myself better.
It all really depends on your character, I think. People think I have fast hands when I flourish, but when I actually do my magic, I go slow and make sure everything's hands off so that there is no possible way of calling what I do just quick hands. The most powerful magic is often times done in the spectator's hands. I think it's key to slow down; milk every magic moment for all it's worth.
I don't think that it takes away from the performance, but only to an extent. I have limited experience, but I think that showing a bit of skill via flourishes establishes a bit of credibility with your audience. Meaning that you actually practiced to be as good as the pros (or what they perceived to be pros) and know what you're doing isn't some self working trick deck that you got from a magic shop or something. It can help establish your character and tell them that you work hard in magic. This can be taken too far to the point where everything's a blur and everything looks like it's manipulated. Again, it's best to do things where there's no way for you to manipulate anything.
My teacher and I had a discussion about flourishes during my freshman year of high school when he found out I did this type of thing. He reminded me about how people as children dreamed about doing flourishes and magic; we've all tried to spring cards and do those shuffles like those guys in the movies, but everyone always thought it was impossible, much like how they think magic is. This got me to think about how this makes people think about what exactly is possible for them as human beings. In a way, showing off a spring to a lay person is like showing them magic because they've only seen it in movies and they didn't think it was possible. It envokes some sort of emotion which can enhance the experience.
I think that was sort of a rant, and I'm sure parts of it didn't make too much sense. I have mixed opinions on the subject, but my advice would be not to show off too much and keep flourishes to a minimum, unless it's justified.

 

[Ineski]

Flourishing doesn't add anything to magic.

I used to flourishes between my tricks, but then I stopped doing tricks and started doing magic. Flourishes just had to go. I started getting much better reactions and "That's incredible" changed into "That's impossible".

"There is a great difference in not knowing how something is done, and in knowing that something can't be done."

 

[JetEyeNight]

Jesus guys.
Its so so so simple.
When performing card magic if you bust out a sybil or whatever it is that you do,the idea of "magic" leaves their head and your seen as a boy/man with fast hands.
Thats it,thats fact.
It is no longer magic if they see that.They say "oh well he is just real slick with his hands".
The notion of magic is left.

I've read magic books that say otherwise. Usually people assume magicians are people with fast hands anyways... most people realize that there is no such thing as real magic, so I think that point is mute. Flourishing adds a lot to magic. It shows that you're a master of your class and it disarms the spectator, whereas before they might assume you're just an amature. When they realize you're a master of your class, they won't even attempt to burn your hands to figure out your tricks, because they realize they won't be able to.

 

[jok3r]

I've read magic books that say otherwise. Usually people assume magicians are people with fast hands anyways... most people realize that there is no such thing as real magic, so I think that point is mute. Flourishing adds a lot to magic. It shows that you're a master of your class and it disarms the spectator, whereas before they might assume you're just an amature. When they realize you're a master of your class, they won't even attempt to burn your hands to figure out your tricks, because they realize they won't be able to.

good point, very well put.