Does T11 have a bone to pick?

[deckmastercards]

The Theory11 rules clearly express a no advertising policy. I agree with it wholeheartedly. However, in the past several months, multiple people have created numerous threads on the forums for their Kickstarter projects, their websites, and various contests they're holding.

All of these threads, including one of mine, were allowed and in many ways even encouraged by the community and even many of the Theory11 staff members. Go back a few pages and you will see these threads.

Yesterday I made a very polite and non-aggressive thread promoting the Kickstarter for my cards. At this point, I by no means need the extra bump in notoriety, as I am sure all of you here already know about it.

What irks me is that the thread was deleted, and I received a very blunt message saying I can't promote the page.

Then somebody bumped my old, dead thread (I guess they thought nobody posted about the Kickstarter launch here) and that thread got locked despite the fact that it had no links to the Kickstarter and was a feedback-oriented thread.

After messaging the moderator who did this, I received no reply. I do not care for killing you guys with ads, in fact I wouldn't remake the thread even with permission. I can respect a forum's rules.

What I can't tolerate, however, is being singled out over everyone else as the rule-breaker. If you don't allow advertising, why is it okay for certain people to make posts trying to garner support for their project that (at worst) benefits a lot of people and doesn't affect those uninterested and at best can be something really cool?

The point I want to make is that the boards should be unified in their stance towards something. Don't play favorites. Either employ a harsh stance against Kickstarter promotions, or let the threads go. Picking and choosing which people can prosper and which people get the boot is unprofessional.

Thank you for reading.

Regards,
Alex

 

[SteveF]

Too bad no one deletes the threads that start like this... "I have a show in a week... what tricks should I do?" or "Would you buy this on the wire."

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Completely agreed with the author, if the mod enforce the rules it must applies to all members not on newbies. I myself witness ad threads without being deleted by mods; so, something needed to be fix here.

 

[nIvan]

I don't think they have a bone to pick, I think that a mod saw your thread and closed it. In fact, most recently, I have seen your name very often, and sometimes with advertisements. In fact I am very excited for the stuff you are advertising and am glad to have found it here. I'm not saying all your posts are advertising posts, in fact the opposite; I know that many of your posts are reviews on decks that are informative and to the point. If you're going to call the mods out, don't do it publicly, ask an admin, an unrelated mod, or someone who doesn't require you to stand on a soapbox. This is a public post that seems as if it was made to make the mods appear as if like they're doing a bad job, which they aren't for the most part. If you see advertisement posts, report them. That's what the button at the bottom right of every post is.

In fact, someone might have said "Hmm, dmc is making a lot of advertisement posts, maybe I should bring it to the mods' attention by reporting it." In this case, a mod hasn't even seen your thread and only closed it because other members found it to be a nuisance.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. PM the mod in question again politely asking if you could post the thread again and explain reasons why you should be able to. If he doesn't respond, move along to a different mod/admin.

 

[William Draven]

I know that before in the past the "No Advertising" rule held sort of a blind eye policy with regards to members who have helped contribute to the forums in some way, shape or form, have otherwise established themselves, or to specific Theory11 artists who have launched other projects and endeavors. Meaning the mods would tend to not see the threads so long as no one in the community cried foul loud enough.

The rule existed mostly (or so it seemed) as a catch all for spammers and the "TowTox" level users who just didn't have a clue beyond the desire to shamelessly self promote a non existent talent that made all magicians look bad on video outlets such as Youtube. Usually the moderators have ignored threads by other forum members (myself included) that have advertised personal websites, tours, projects, appearances, and the like.

Here recently we've had a sudden run of promotions perhaps more so than normal with youtube channel crap that have caught the moderators attention. One such person who is currently serving out a limited ban is that Phantasmagorianna guy who, despite repeated moderator rebuke still insisted on posting advertisements to his youtube channel, and went even as far as trying to start a flame war with other respected members of this forum in an effort to cause people to look at his page out of controversy. They say that one bad apple spoils the bunch, and no doubt having to deal with his issues to the point of banning has caused the team to look at everything across the board as of recent.

Frankly, I am of the school of thought that says "Everything in moderation, including moderation." For the most part, our community here polices itself. I would hope that given a few more weeks, once the novelty of the Wire settles down, and people get a bad run of their threads being shut down for advertising that things will eventually return to a business as usual around here. Call it a double standard if you will, but I believe that forum members who have proven that they aren't only interested in their own self advancement/promotion should be given a little extra privileges here and there. I personally don't consider that a double standard, I consider it an earned privilege. Just like I believe that it's silly to slap someone on the wrist for using profanity once in a thread where 98% of the time they aren't known on the boards for using such language.

Regardless to the moderators current activity level in policing threads that have concerning levels of self promotion in them, Theory11 as a whole has, and currently remains to be, one of the more liberal online magic communities to support third party advertisements as it were. Other forums such as Ellusionist frequently won't even let you mention the name of other online magic retail communities, let alone post off site links unless they exist in your signature. So given that food for thought, all things considered Theory11 isn't that bad for the things they do let slide.

Now this does raise an interesting concern for all things Wire related. Since we don't get the awesome "new release" broadcasts on the forums by Casey or Bayme, nor have I seen anything make a newsletter as of yet, I kind of think we SHOULD be allowed to advertise in the Wire forum. However I believe this should be strictly enforced that it stays in the Wire forum only.

 

[deckmastercards]

@nlvan: I in no way intend to call out the mods or any specific mod which is why I left names out of my post. I've had nothing but good experiences with the Theory11 members in the past, and never had a run in with a moderator. It just seems excessive to single out my recently launched Kickstarter among the other ones. Sure, I'm doing great, which is why I am not demanding a relaunched thread. It's the principle of the matter. I don't like being singled out as, basically, a spammer, when I avoid doing so at all times.

@William: I've had my fair share of forum administrating experience, some of which have been as large as Theory11's. I agree with you wholeheartedly that over time, members earn perks that new members would either be reprimanded for or even harassed by the community for. Let's face it, with your high post count (and undoubtedly high quality posts) you are an asset to the community. I think you've earned yourself the right to get a little back every now and again because a community is totally reliant on its members.

What still gets me is that in just the last few pages of threads on this board alone, you'll see people who have signed up just to post a link to their products and these threads are praised and go completely unmoderated.

I am by no means an extraordinary asset to the T11 community, but I believe that if members whose only purpose is to plug their products can get away with it and even get praised for it, there should be no reason that I cannot do the same, and then on top of that actually posting on here from time to time.

Keep in mind, I had e-mailed the moderator that deleted my thread, and instead of getting a reply back, the next time he logged on he locked my old, dead thread that someone unwittingly bumped up instead of replying to me.

I think how calm the reactions to this thread have been is a testament to this community's professionalism, so I take back what I had stated earlier. Perhaps my situation was just one-in-a-thousand.

 

[BnibroC69]

Too bad no one deletes the threads that start like this... "I have a show in a week... what tricks should I do?" or "Would you buy this on the wire."

You forgot the "What is the super awesomest most mega powerful uber easy trick of amazingness in the history of ever?" threads.

 

[RickEverhart]

Alex and to Whom ever else I have offended, at this point in time I am not sure (but am looking into) what Theory 11's stance is on Kickstarter projects and such. Yours just happened to keep coming up a few times. I agree there cannot be a grey area. We are either going to stop all of them or allow them all. I will reopen your thread but please do not keep making new ones every few days. Also keep in mind that being a mod is not my day job. Some of you think I sit at home and lurk the forums all day long. I am a school teacher who gets on the boards perhaps once a day in the evenings / weekends and I catch what I can. I also have a wife and kids who I spend time with. There are times when I may not see somone else's kickstarter thread or a thread that has gotten out of hand. This is when people need to report a thread or PM me regarding something that is against our rules. My apologies and with that I'll reopen your thread.

 

[Steve Dio]

The following lines come from someone who has been moderating big and very big community forums since 2001. (Does vBulletin 1.1 sound familiar to anyone here?)

For those spamming with "updates" about their wannabe Kickstarter projects, please take a deep breath and then read this:

The Theory11 board IS NOT your private blog.

Stop opening threads for every playing card-related kickstarter campaign. Compare your designs with Theory11's Sentinels, for example. Such a project requires the insight of a professional graphic artist.
To keep it short -
If I liked your playing card designs, I would go to kickstarter myself and support your project.
If I cared about your Wire trick I would browse it myself and buy it if I found any value in it.

As stated in the rules, if your product is worth it, it will get around on its own.

 

[deckmastercards]

Alex and to Whom ever else I have offended, at this point in time I am not sure (but am looking into) what Theory 11's stance is on Kickstarter projects and such. Yours just happened to keep coming up a few times. I agree there cannot be a grey area. We are either going to stop all of them or allow them all. I will reopen your thread but please do not keep making new ones every few days. Also keep in mind that being a mod is not my day job. Some of you think I sit at home and lurk the forums all day long. I am a school teacher who gets on the boards perhaps once a day in the evenings / weekends and I catch what I can. I also have a wife and kids who I spend time with. There are times when I may not see somone else's kickstarter thread or a thread that has gotten out of hand. This is when people need to report a thread or PM me regarding something that is against our rules. My apologies and with that I'll reopen your thread.

Thank you Rick. I never figured you were on here 24/7 reading posts, I just got a tad flustered about the situation. I have to say, being a teacher and a magician - your kids must adore you.

@Steve Dio: Yes, vBulletin does sound familiar, and I think most of us have been on the web as long or longer than you have. The fact that you are moderating a "very big forum community" doesn't mean much. Try administrating the same community. I guarantee you the shift in hard work will go from part-time to a full-time experience.

I don't see how anything about any of the recent Kickstarters is "wannabe." Russell has surpassed his goal by a ridiculous amount in just one week. I have raised over $9000 in one day. Adam set an extremely high bar and raised $26,000 over his entire pledging period. Lance Miller has some of the finest art I've ever seen on a deck of cards.

Nobody is on here trashing what you do. I respect your opinion and disregard for the new playing card community, but outright insulting someone just makes you look like you're having a temper tantrum.

I personally am not seeking out investors. None of my Kickstarter rewards are targeted towards an investor except for two, both of which sold out within the first day.

Thank you for taking a calm, productive thread and throwing in a childish, hate-filled post.

@Rick or any other mod: Feel free to lock this when you guys have the time. Thank you for your help.

 

[RickEverhart]

At this point in time JB will have the final decision on Kickstarter projects and we (Lyle and I) are awaiting feedback to see what his decision is. I will lock this now since the originator of the thread would like it locked. Thanks.