E or T11?

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May 10, 2008
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I agree with Pleth (which doesn't mean I won't state my own). I also think that while E's forums are a little uptight, In my opinion their goal should be like T11, the futuring of magic. In my opinion I think that the goal of all magic forums is for individuals to develop ideas and effects under the scrutiny of your peers for the bettering of magic. Which, I think is impossible to do if you say that your products are the best and you have to say that and think that way.

-Cards for thought
 
You can tell by the moderators responses in that thread, they are not concerned about the customer,

And more so getting customers.

If they lose a customer due to a bad experiance, they dont care, as long as someone else feels their gap.

With T11 I have seen on many occasions staff going out of their way to help out, making phone calls, sending emails etc to help in any way they can.
 
Its just different point of view.

Before, I was so hyped about E and I loved E. But then some people made me realize that E was hyping us a lot so I went to T11. Being not allowed to buy online kinda helped me about that E hype. I think E is using some kind of hypnosis.:D
 
Mar 30, 2008
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DC
Well, here is what I've noticed:

Theory 11's goal is to advance magic as a whole. Seeing as magic is easily obtainable nowadays, T11 is highering the standards of incredible magic. Theory 11 is not doing it for the personal profit alone. The quality and quantity of their tricks proves this as they release few, but incredible tricks. In all honesty, when you perform a trick properly made by Theory 11, the reactions you receive are incredible. When you perform a trick from your average magic shop (I am not calling E the average magic shop because it is NOT), you do not receive such great reactions. Thus, Theory 11 goes to advance magic as an art, collecting any profits made.

Ellusionist also makes good tricks. I have to say, some of the stuff Ellusionist comes up with is really good. They market good quality DVD's and clearly teach the tricks. They sell a variety of decks that help you open the doors to create your own astonishing magic tricks. Some decks are great for fanning, some for XCM, and they even have decks that let you perform the once-impossible. E also carries a variety of powerful gimmicks that can help you take your magic to the next level. However, because there is more quantity in Ellusionist than Theory 11, there is also more room for improvement and for weaknesses.


Although they have some great tricks, Ellusionist uses way to much propaganda for a profit. As a business, Ellusionist does not put the advancement magic as an art in front of their own profit. However there is no rule saying they should. In fact, most businesses are supposed to make a profit at whatever cost. However, by following this rule, Ellusionist sets the bar for good magic at a lower standard. Ellusionist carries great tricks, but the vast quantity of their tricks are not that great. As a whole, Ellusionist sets their eyes on getting a profit (which is not a bad thing).

Where the two conflict:

Ellusionist goes for the profit more so than the advancement of magic (seriously, are they serious 35 bucks for the gimmick and DVD of flow when I can buy the gimmick at ******* (not saying where) for $2.50 and learn how to do it just as well by myself). Theory 11 puts the common society of magic in front and helps raise the standard of good magic. By doing this, Theory 11's tricks makes a lot of Ellusionist tricks seem bad. THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY TRUE, but it can be said about some products.

Would you choose the IVanish or Digital Dissolve? I would choose DD.

Anyway, the point I am getting at is that by making the quality of their tricks a little better, Theory11 gives Ellusionist a reason for competition between the companies, this does not mean that Ellusionist is against Theory 11 or vice versa. This just gives a reason for the competition, not to imply that there even is one. Because of this, Ellusionist MIGHT feel the need to step up their game in other categories. Thus, without any confrontation, a competition that both parties would probably like to avoid occurs, pitting customers against companies as well as moderators of certain parties against anyone who does not have their same views.

For example, take a look at the thread on E and on page two. That moderator Steerpike is completely abusing his mod powers to his advantage. He is rambling on about how people are acting like children, while he acts like one! If you ever read this Steerpike, don't flame up, go read your posts from an outsiders perspective!

This moderator then says, "Any further attempts to harp on this train of thought will be deleted." Completely rude and he should be ashamed of himself! Rather than politely speak his own mind about why he believes the thread creator is incorrect, this moderator furies up and says that. Also, read what the moderator said before that, it shows his anger and childish attitude being that, "Oh, I don't feel like discussing the topic, so I will use my moderator powers to my advantage and delete anything that lets someone else express different views than my own, tee hee ^.^" This moderator needs to grow up. There was another moderator in the forums who did the right thing and explained his reasoning.

As you can see, the moderators at Ellusionist are being torn from their beliefs and their loyalty to their own parties because Theory 11 advances magic for the common good while Ellusionist goes for a personal profit. Thus, a competition and rivalry exists between the two boards of E and T11, even though the actual businesses themselves might not want to be against each other.

Personally, I believe both businesses could be equally successful. Ellusionist puts people like Steerpike as Moderators and create tension, so when outsiders view the comments, people run to theory 11 because the people are nicer and are not competitive. This makes Ellusionist more competitive as they lose customers, so they make attractions such as Celebracadabra to increase their viewers. (This could be a reason).

I think I am on a tangent here so I will stop.

To get back on track however

Theory 11 and Ellusionist both have different priorities, which causes tension between them. In fact, they have nearly opposite reasons , which causes outbreaks of whose is right and wrong between the customers and moderators from the respective parties. In reality, there could be no conflict, but the vast difference between the companies causes it. This creates tension for both communities and starts affecting the forums (as on the forum about this at E). Because of the conflict, different people all have different aspects of the situation, which must be respected (Steerpike did not do that whatsoever).
You can discuss this with me if you disagree or if you think I assume too much, but from my perspective, this is how I see the situation.

I personally believe theory 11 is better because it cares for the common good of the magic society while Ellusionist acts (I am REALLY REALLY REALLY SORRY TO ACCUSE OF E OF THIS BUT) like a communist society in which if you express your opinions, moderators kick you around abuse their powers, and take away your opinions and label them as childish and terrible. Ellusionist then markets really high prices for average products. The tension in their forums created by the moderators even helps prove that Ellusionist is more so in the business for a profit, while Theory 11 is in the business to BETTER THE ART OF MAGIC.

I believe that people, regardless of which magic site they like, should set their minds at a broader view to inspect the situation as a whole and then judge it however they please. People like Steerpike should not jump to rash conclusions and stop people from expressing their beliefs. (Even though Theory11-pro argument at the end, I saw both sides of the argument first)


Thanks for reading! (Yeah that was long, so a double thank you! ^.^)
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,699
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Well, if we're talking forums, T11 all the way. As far as products go, on a one to one basis, T11's come out ahead. But E has a greater variety. And it has books. I'm a big fan of the books, personally.

Say, hasn't this topic been exhausted enough times for it to be trite for the next six years?

Yes. Yes it has.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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For example, take a look at the thread on E and on page two. That moderator Steerpike is completely abusing his mod powers to his advantage. He is rambling on about how people are acting like children, while he acts like one! If you ever read this Steerpike, don't flame up, go read your posts from an outsiders perspective!

Before you lecture me, consider how utterly classless it is to pick a fight like you just did.

Rather than politely speak his own mind about why he believes the thread creator is incorrect, this moderator furies up and says that.

I wasn't talking to the threadstarter when I said that. Nice.

This is why threads like this go nowhere. You describe your selections for tricks as if they're the only choices to make. You yell at E for the pricing of Flow, but you don't take the creator to task, and then have the audacity to suggest that reverse-engineering the trick would be better. Who are you trying to impress?

Every one of my critics loves to rip into me for being blunt and straightforward. You call me immature, then come here to take shots at me whenever possible and have the balls to suggest that you're better people than me because of it. Just look at how many times you bring up my name long after you've finished your little rant. Take a look in the mirror before you think about doing that again.

This is why I hate so much.

For the love of all things non-retarded, somebody close this thread.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
1,699
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It's uncool to attack people.

Uncool indeed.

By the way:

I personally believe theory 11 is better because it cares for the common good of the magic society while Ellusionist acts (I am REALLY REALLY REALLY SORRY TO ACCUSE OF E OF THIS BUT) like a communist society in which if you express your opinions, moderators kick you around abuse their powers, and take away your opinions and label them as childish and terrible.

In a theoretical communist society, everyone is on equal footing. You're thinking of fascism.

Besides, shouldn't we be talking about the Smoke and Mirrors deck or something?

http://www.siscottstudio.com/

Some badass stuff here...
 
Feb 2, 2008
7
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And this is exactly the reason why I dont have anything to do with E anymore.

At the end of the day, all they (the staff) care about is making the money.

bottom line.... (although very opinionated) Theory 11 rules...
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,699
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*Cough*

I think that Si's designs for Silent Studios are very well done. I like the way he integrates abstract line into a cohesive form. I am guessing that it will be a trend that will be repeated in Smoke and Mirrors, simply judging by the title...

But in all seriousness, we should always remember to appreciate our freedoms here at T11. I know I do. Every singe freakin' day.
 
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Apr 22, 2008
224
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I agree with Pleth (which doesn't mean I won't state my own). I also think that while E's forums are a little uptight, In my opinion their goal should be like T11, the futuring of magic. In my opinion I think that the goal of all magic forums is for individuals to develop ideas and effects under the scrutiny of your peers for the bettering of magic. Which, I think is impossible to do if you say that your products are the best and you have to say that and think that way.

-Cards for thought


Same
(short)
 
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