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Enough With Card Flourishes?

Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Incidentally, this extensive explanatory process I'm undertaking here is my latest attempt to fix the problem. I'm trying a fourth-wall approach, which currently seems to be working a lot better than my other efforts. I've never stopped trying to fix this - I've just never exactly had much success, either.

If this is working better than what you were doing before, why don't you do this more often?
 
Magic, is an art.

Cardistry is an art.

There is no reason for anyone to stop flourishing because it doesn't fool people like magic does. There are many types of arts out there and each of them are different.

You might as well say that people who draw should stop drawing. Kids nowadays like to draw what they see on TV. Should we tell them to stop doing that because they are "trying to be like someone else?"

People try to be like other people because they were inspired by them, not just to copy everything they do.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
52
Seattle
www.darklock.com
If this is working better than what you were doing before, why don't you do this more often?

I am. Didn't you understand that? Every time this happens, I do something different, because nothing I've done before has ever worked. So whereas previously I had never done this, I have now done it once because I think it might work.

If I'm right, I'll keep doing it. If I'm wrong, I'll do something else next time. That's how you solve problems like this - you experiment, and whenever something doesn't work, you conduct a post-mortem on the situation to make sure you understand why it didn't work and what needs to change. Since I only get to conduct these experiments three or four times a year, and the precise conditions of each experiment are out of my control, it takes a very long time to make any progress.
 

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
33
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
This thread started with Sands wanting to know two things, why so many Flourish videos and why so many people copy one another.

Now this thread turned into people complaining about other people not making paragraphs, grammar errors, "straw arguments", etc. If people actually replied to the real meaning of posts we wouldn't have this problem. Instead of having a civilized debate you guys turn this into an all out war of who sounds more "intelligent". Personally, I believe layman are more than qualified to render an opinion that one should consider because they are the spectators. Their opinion is somewhat important.

ThisTwoGoesTo22: You're still stuck on my last few sentences aren't you? The rest of my post seems to fly right past you. In case you haven't noticed, I said "In my opinion" so don't lecture me, I never tried to pass it off as factual.

Let's move on with our lives and not fight about definitions, punctual errors, etc. It's getting ridiculous. Everyone is trying to outwit one another with big words so they can seem as if they're right. You know what I'm talking about. Now instead of trying to prove me wrong for the next twenty posts...how about we get back on topic?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I am. Didn't you understand that? Every time this happens, I do something different, because nothing I've done before has ever worked. So whereas previously I had never done this, I have now done it once because I think it might work.

Then I think it's safe to say we've finally reached a conclusion we can both be happy with.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
52
Seattle
www.darklock.com
If people actually replied to the real meaning of posts we wouldn't have this problem.

The problem is that people have tremendous difficulty identifying the real meaning of posts. So what you've said is, effectively, "if we didn't have this problem we wouldn't have this problem".

And I believe you are right.

I believe layman are more than qualified to render an opinion

Not on technical matters. Anyone qualified to render an opinion on technical matters is by definition not a layman.

The layman is, of course, able to render an opinion on technical matters... but since he does not understand them, his opinion has little value.
 

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
33
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
See what I mean? Enough with the definitions already. I'm done here, it's a full circle all over again. Let's just all agree to disagree. No one is going to level with each other.

"The layman is, of course, able to render an opinion on technical matters... but since he does not understand them, his opinion has little value." ........That's your opinion suitable for what you're doing, not for what I'm doing.

Take care,
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
52
Seattle
www.darklock.com
See what I mean? Enough with the definitions already.

If you are having this much trouble understanding what I said, I didn't say it correctly. That's my fault, and I have to fix it.

The problem with asking a layman his opinion on contact juggling is that you're asking someone a technical question about something he has never studied and does not understand.

It's like asking someone waiting in the emergency room whether this mass you found during a biopsy is cancerous. He might have an opinion, but it's worthless. You can't rely on it. You certainly can't go back to the patient and say "hey, I just talked to a guy in the waiting room, and guess what?"

This has nothing to do with how smart the guy in the waiting room is. He might be a nuclear physicist. On the other hand, he might be a peanut farmer. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that the question is of a technical nature, and you have to ask it of someone who understands the subject.

You can still ask the peanut farmer what to do about aflatoxin contamination. Because he understands the subject, his opinion on this technical matter has value. And you can ask the nuclear physicist whether he likes American Idol, because it's not a technical question. But asking the nuclear physicist about aflatoxin contamination is probably a bad idea.
 
Sep 1, 2007
479
0
Philadelphia, PA
See what I mean? Enough with the definitions already. I'm done here, it's a full circle all over again. Let's just all agree to disagree. No one is going to level with each other.

"The layman is, of course, able to render an opinion on technical matters... but since he does not understand them, his opinion has little value." ........That's your opinion suitable for what you're doing, not for what I'm doing.

Take care,

Try using the ignore list function built into the forums. It worked for me :D

--Jim
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
I'm fine with cardistry and I respect it. But nowadays, it seems like it's all getting a little bit show-offy rather than an artistic expression. Magicians are using these hardcore Buck Twins flourishes to pretty much say "hey, look at me!" because really, there's no way you aren't going to attract attention with 8 packets of cards flailing around every which way. I find them distracting and also I find they sort of show up other magicians who do not flourish their cards.

I'll stick to my Charlier Cuts.
 
Sep 1, 2007
15
0
Leesburg, Virginia.
To be honest, I WON'T USE CARDS!!! Why? Because I'm going to look magic. Not "maybe a trick deck" type magic. Not "look he can do something hard that I can't because I don't have the time or patience" but "how the hell did he do that?" type of magic. I'm not going to fiddle around with some paper that's easy to manipulate with some practice. I' don't need anything to be magic, I AM MAGIC. I'm going to go out WITHOUT a deck of cards and the knowledge of how to do fifty-thousand flourishes which to a laymen all look the same. I'm going out and reading their mind, slowing time, and bringing them to a magical place in TODAYS world. Not in a deck of cards that Bicycle made, but in MY hands. That's all I have to say.
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,016
0
Why the truck are you on a magic site, If you think it's a terrible crime to use cards, specially T11? Lulz, them crazy mentalists.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
It always brings a smile (well... a smirk) to my face when some magician gets the notion in his head that he's too good for certain props. I love that.

Of course, within a few months they either drop off the face of the earth or come back older and a little wiser.
 
Sep 1, 2007
479
0
Philadelphia, PA
It always brings a smile (well... a smirk) to my face when some magician gets the notion in his head that he's too good for certain props. I love that.

Of course, within a few months they either drop off the face of the earth or come back older and a little wiser.

Spongeballs spring to mind....can't even count the number of guys who laugh at working with spongeballs and scoff at the notion of using them.

Eugene Burger still performs a routine with spongeballs.

--Jim

*note- yes I have been turned on the the wisdom of Burger and McBride and it's about time =)
 
Jan 11, 2008
17
0
To Sands:
I don't quite understand whether you're annoyed by "too many flourish threads" or "too many people copying and wanting to be like other pros"

Agree

In the first case all I can say is there's 2,225 magic threads vs. 308 on the Cardistry forum...

Agree

As for people copying and releasing the same overused material...all I can say is that's the way life works. There are leaders and there are followers. There are those who create and those who learn. Generally speaking, the are fewer leaders than followers. It's always been that way and will always remain.

Agree

As for XCM/Cardistry + Magic being the future...only time will tell. Regardless...I think it would be a safe bet to keep up the pace and have the best of both worlds in your back pocket.

Depends on the performer and what they want to show to the world.

Don't take this offensively; but, I believe you're just complaining because you're so overwhelmed between two sides producing so much material...you feel as though you can't keep up. I think we all feel that way sometimes. So much so in fact, we feel obligated to choose between two halves.

As I said before, this has no merit. Who in the hell are you to make this statement? "Don't take this offensively" does NOT give you a wild card to spew fallacies.

Also, magic contains a lot more than cards and flourishing.

In the end, entertainment is entertainment. The more you learn the more you'll show, the better you will entertain.

Completely agree.


Take care
 
Dec 2, 2007
102
1
I'm going out and reading their mind, slowing time, and bringing them to a magical place in TODAYS world. Not in a deck of cards that Bicycle made, but in MY hands. That's all I have to say.

Sorry to rain all over your parade, but OTHER people do mind readings, and OTHER people slow time. Yes TODAY people are doing this. Darren Brown does it all the time. These people are called mentalists, there's actually a section for them in the media part or Theory 11. Looks like your either going to have to:

A) Get off your high horse and live like the rest of us using tricks adapted from others.

B) Reinvent all magic as we know it, if you do PM me, I'd LOVE to know how you did it.
 
To be honest, I WON'T USE CARDS!!! Why? Because I'm going to look magic. Not "maybe a trick deck" type magic. Not "look he can do something hard that I can't because I don't have the time or patience" but "how the hell did he do that?" type of magic. I'm not going to fiddle around with some paper that's easy to manipulate with some practice.
If people are thinking this after you perform for them with cards, you're doing something colossally wrong. People will think it's all manipulation and quick hands if your performance tells them to think that way just like people will be literally beyond words and believe that they just witnessed something truly special if your presentation is right.

In other words, it's you, not the props. If you want proof of this, look no further than...well, any successful professional card magician. The ones running this site would be a good place to start.
 
Jan 11, 2008
216
0
New york
I have books that asks you to barrow a gentlemen handkerchief and a silver dollar.

1. no one knows what a thimble is anymore
2. the dollar coin is now the size of a quarter
3. cigarettes are bad they kill
4. cigarette paper is associated with marijuana now.

lots of things in magic are passing through due to times lets see what will happen to card to cell phone in 5 years.,cards is one thing thats survived the times. embrace it. I for one have the Dan and Dave DVD just so i can learn one flourish so i can use the line "JUST A SIMPLE CUT" in the middle of a card routine.
 
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