Erdnase bottom deal

Discussion in 'Magic Forum' started by erdnase92, May 1, 2011.

  1. Hallo what do you think about my erdnase bottom deal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEd9s1oqLWY , in particular how much is visible the third thinger loosening action and if it can be used in the real game ??
     
  2. Looks great. Even while bruning your hands, I could barely notice a difference in dealing. However, I feel that the camera angle is a little biased since you are not playing only one person.
     
  3. how can I eliminate that little difference ??
     
  4. Set the camera up at different angles, deal and review.
     
  5. Personally, I'd criticise how you are putting the deck into the grip. For me, you spend way too long putting the deck into erdnase grip, if you were to pick up the deck into mechanics grip you would do it very naturally and wouldn't think twice about placing the deck. I would therefore say work on getting the deck into the grip in a natural manner (once you have spent months with the grip, you'll learn you don't need a tense deep grip of the deck, but a more relaxed hold which you can get into with one hand). Overall, this time you spend doing what should be something you don't think twice about in my view arouses suspicion and putting the deck into the left hand should be as natural as placing it into mechanics grip.

    Regarding the actual deal, I honestly don't think a spectator would think twice about it, although we should always be striving for perfection. I don't think we can get zero finger flash so it's more about minimizing the finger flash. In my experience, the pull down and push out of the bottom card should be done in one motion, with the ring and pinky fingers together.

    With the push out, you really don't need to push the bottom card out that far to get a good take, the smallest push out will do and should be done to avoid a sudden straightening out of the ring and pinky fingers.

    This is all in my personal experience with the bottom deal in this grip, and so may or may not apply to you. However after seeing this video, the thing I think you need to focus most on is placing the deck in you left hand into the grip in a natural manner, as if you were putting the deck into a regular mechanics grip.

    Hope this helps. :)
     
  6. I suggest not using this as your primary bottom deal because of the loosening action of the finger. There is simply no way to get rid of it. As Jason England says: "It is a great place to start, but not a great place to end." However, if you choose to stick with it:

    1. Work on the rhythm. You speed up whenever you take a bottom. This is common. So, to solve this, either slow down the take on your bottom, or speed up your legitimate deals. Either way, I suggest practicing different speeds on the take. This way, depending on the speed of other players' deals, you can adapt and change speed as needed. It is important to get the rhythm down so you can do the moves as fast or slow as you want. That advice applies to all moves.

    2. As "b+w" has mentioned, you take too long to get the deck into an Erdnase grip. Vernon was very big on picking up a deck and immediately getting into the grip. It is talked about in one of his Revelations tapes. If you watch legit gamblers, they do not take any time at all to adjust finger positions etc. They pick up the deck and deal. Another thing Vernon talks about, and I believe said was showed to him by Charlie Miller (I could be wrong) is changing the grip WHILE dealing. You could try starting in mechanic's or full grip, and then switching to an Erdnase grip right before the bottom needs to be done. I don't recommend it though, and it certainly isn't something I would do.

    3. Yeah yeah, I know, it's been said before. The Erdnase grip is a tell in itself, as is a straddle grip. No casual player deals cards like this, they use a full grip or (if trained professionally, like a casino or hired dealer) a mechanic's grip. There really isn't any reason for a complete laymen to say "Ooh, an Erdnase grip! He's bottom dealing" However, why give someone the chance to suspect you? I'm not knocking the erdnase, modified erdnase, or straddle deals by the way. I think the Erdnase deals are great and provide the perfect cover for the first or second finger of the right hand to do the dirty work (the take). However, it is something you should be aware of.

    4. Your dealing hand dips down whenever a bottom is taken. This is also common, and is even a tell in the hands of experts like Darwin Ortiz and Steve Forte. Try to keep your dealing hand level at all times. I used to do this too, here is what helped me: Practice bottom dealing with the dealing hand flat on the table. After a couple of hours or so, the habit should be gone and you can return to holding the deck above the table. Also: I understand that this action is sometimes done purposely to cover "knuckle flash" or "finger flutter". If you really can't do away with the action, then just make sure to use Erdnase's infamous psychology of uniformity of action. In other words, whenever dealing cards to yourself, even off the top, make sure your hand dips. Again, this is only as a last resort and I highly recommend that you get rid of this tell completely instead.

    5. Thumb movement. Probably the hardest tell to get rid of. Your thumb lifts for tops, and is pretty much dead (motionless) for bottoms. This is a big tell. I really can't think of any tips to give you here. It can only be corrected with practice.

    I hope these help.
     
  7. ok thanks for everything you raccomanded to me (and sorry for my english !!!) however now I have 2 questions for you:
    can this bottom deal be used actualy in the real game or is too much visible ??
    do you think that I should practice with strike method like gene maze grip ??????
     
  8. Well, I would need to know more about your game. However, any and every move "can" be used. It comes down to judgement in the end. Obviously, if there is a cutcard of some sort it can't be used.

    Another problem is that you did it with half of a deck (or maybe it was 3/4 of a deck). You need to understand that Erdnase was from a different era. So when he wrote: "Bottom dealing is little used with a full deck. It becomes much easier as the pack grows less, consequently the dealer waits until the last several rounds before resorting to it", he was most likely talking about draw poker, or other games that were played back then. Today, Texas Hold 'em dominates the poker world. In this game players each start with 2 cards, and there is no "drawing" (you can't exchange cards). So even in a 6 handed game, you only get rid of 5 cards off the pack before a bottom needs to be dealt (assuming you are dealing bottoms to yourself). Even if you are only going to bottom deal one card, and you wait till the second card of your hand you only get rid of 11 cards. This is why I need to know about your games. If you are playing a game like bridge, draw poker, or seven card stud or something, then only being able to deal with about half a deck is fine.

    So with that being said, it certainly "could" be used, because any move can. However it is more of a question of whether or not it is a good idea to use it. That all comes down to judgement and timing on your part.

    The second question is completely up to you. Different deals offer different advantages and some are easier or harder depending on one's hands and/or fingers.
     
  9. I deal with half deck because I retain that is ultra stupid dealing with the full deck and now I explain you this.
    I'm able to use riffle stack too, so I use bottom deal to evitate to use pass after the cut, so I stack the flop which is on top adn then after having deat the 2 bottom cards I use the classic pass to bring flop to the top.
    If I should deal with the full deck I would stack and then I would use the pass.
    However the tecnicque I have showed to you is not my real tecnicque beacuse I'm practicing with a motified gene maze bottom deal that I will show you (and sorry for my english)
     

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