Ethics of Magic

[FadedTemp]

I was told today that the Ethics of a magician are based around Lying, Stealing and Cheating. That those of you that make a career off of magic simply take advantage of the gullible and susceptible.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[GusEds]

The Ethics of a modern day magician are based aournd entretainment, a sense of style and awesomness.

Those are my thoughts on this
Lying Stealing and cheating may have been the main idea in the beggining of magic, but there's a word to describe those kind of people : Con Artists.

 

[filth0013]

I was told today that the Ethics of a magician are based around Lying, Stealing and Cheating. That those of you that make a career off of magic simply take advantage of the gullible and susceptible.

What are your thoughts on this?

yes, magicians, lie and cheat, but not nessacarily steal.

 

[Ben Long]

yes, magicians, lie and cheat, but not nessacarily steal.

They lie, cheat, and biddle steal.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

I was told today that the Ethics of a magician are based around Lying, Stealing and Cheating. That those of you that make a career off of magic simply take advantage of the gullible and susceptible.

What are your thoughts on this?

As someone said, we may lie and cheat, but stealing isn't exactly something that is part of a magician's ethics.

I have to say that aside from the stealing part, I agree with what this person said. All magicians do is entertain people and bring joy into their lives! Its sickening!

-Doug

-edit- I think I'll elaborate on this. Most magicians don't exactly claim to have supernatural powers. If we claimed to have supernatural powers and talk about being able to do things normal people can't, then yes... that would be taking advantage of the gullible and susceptible. However, at no point do I ever say that I'm some sort of god.... Don't you love people's ignorance?

 

[TeeDee]

This perception is our fault (by which I mean magicians in general). If we were better at presenting ourselves and our magic people wouldn't think things like this.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

This perception is our fault (by which I mean magicians in general). If we were better at presenting ourselves and our magic people wouldn't think things like this.

I disagree with you. Its not our fault. My views is that its people's ignorance. People will know little about something and assume many things. Its just like our performance... We never claim supernatural powers. We just do magical things. People then assume that we were claiming supernatural powers.

Quote from the Illusionist:
"Do you claim supernatural powers?"
"I never said anything of that sort"
(Not an exact quote. Just off the top of my head.)

Whoever said those "ethics of a magician" is clearly ignorant and needs to get their facts straight.

-Doug

 

[MaGiK Man]

Lying, maybe in the fact that we make up random patter that may or may not have happened haha. Cheating, maybe in a gambling effect, but isnt that the point? Stealing...well maybe if your Bob Arno and pickpocket peoples up on stage =P.

~Nate

 

[FadedTemp]

I disagree with you. Its not our fault. My views is that its people's ignorance. People will know little about something and assume many things. Its just like our performance... We never claim supernatural powers. We just do magical things. People then assume that we were claiming supernatural powers.

Quote from the Illusionist:
"Do you claim supernatural powers?"
"I never said anything of that sort"
(Not an exact quote. Just off the top of my head.)

Whoever said those "ethics of a magician" is clearly ignorant and needs to get their facts straight.

-Doug

My psychology teacher, pretty sure he aims to upset at least one group of individuals every class.

 

[filth0013]

They lie, cheat, and biddle steal.

touche'.

 

[DoubleM941]

Well id hav to say that wut magicians do isnt really cheating or lying but giving someone a chance to see the impossible and putting a reason or backbone behind it to make it seem more real idk

 

[Deleted member 2755]

Well id hav to say that wut magicians do isnt really cheating or lying but giving someone a chance to see the impossible and putting a reason or backbone behind it to make it seem more real idk

What you just said requires both cheating and lying. Let's use the Outjogged Hermann Shift from The Paper Engine. (Also available in the 1 on 1 section if you wish to see it done.) The card goes into the center and appears to be lost, but in reality, its on the bottom. By doing this sleight, you are
A)Lying by showing that it is lost in the deck
B)Cheating because it does not get lost in the deck, it goes to the bottom.

What you said is true. You are showing the impossible. However, you have to lie and cheat in order to achieve that.

-Doug

 

[DoubleM941]

What you just said requires both cheating and lying. Let's use the Outjogged Hermann Shift from The Paper Engine. (Also available in the 1 on 1 section if you wish to see it done.) The card goes into the center and appears to be lost, but in reality, its on the bottom. By doing this sleight, you are
A)Lying by showing that it is lost in the deck
B)Cheating because it does not get lost in the deck, it goes to the bottom.

What you said is true. You are showing the impossible. However, you have to lie and cheat in order to achieve that.

-Doug

hm that is true

 

[ZimFasa]

Well, it is true that magicians lie and cheat.
But, the lies do not hurt people physically or emotionally. They bring entertainment and joy. The lies aren't said for personal gain or to deprive others, they're also to entertain.
The "cheating" is also, yet again, not used for any detrimental reasons but for pure entertainment. Tell your physcology teacher to look at the motives and reasoning for doing these things. He slanders magicians by acting as if they are common poker cheats. That is a totally false assumption, because magicians don't really steal a thing. Maybe the spectators conception of reality, but nonetheless, that seems like a favor. =]

 

[Sir FansAlot]

A)Lying by showing that it is lost in the deck
B)Cheating because it does not get lost in the deck, it goes to the bottom.

What you said is true. You are showing the impossible. However, you have to lie and cheat in order to achieve that.

-Doug

I tend to disagree that performing magic is lying and/or cheating. Mainly my reasoning is that no one else thinks you are (I find it hard to imagine anyone thinking "that guy is a cheater/liar") during or after a magic trick. People are more likely to think "that was a good trick, or I know/saw what he did there." Much like no one really considers an actor as a liar/cheater.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

I tend to disagree that performing magic is lying and/or cheating. Mainly my reasoning is that no one else thinks you are (I find it hard to imagine anyone thinking "that guy is a cheater/liar") during or after a magic trick. People are more likely to think "that was a good trick, or I know/saw what he did there." Much like no one really considers an actor as a liar/cheater.

"Mainly my reasoning is that no one thinks you are during or after a magic trick."
Of course no one would think you are cheating. You aren't in that type of atmosphere. If you won a poker game by cheating and you were suspected, then obviously people would be thinking "Oh.... he just cheated..." However, with magic, you aren't going for personal gain. (Well, you are... but not that they are aware of.) Its just something very fun and astonishing. You can't get around the fact though that in order to do magic, you have to lie and cheat.

"There was a saying that I heard growing up and it was that the job of the artist is to convince the world of his lie. Meaning that what he creates isn't real, but its ok to enjoy it for what it is. As an artist, that's your job. Magic is one of those things, people have to believe our lie. If they don't, it doesn't work." -Joel Paschall

-Doug

 

[ThrallMind]

Actors are the same way. They lie about who they are, and they cheat about how things are done. Did Neo REALLY fly and fight off all of those Agent Smiths? Moreso, is Neo even real?

The difference between those who really lie, cheat, and steal and us as entertainers, is our audience is allowing aware of all this. A real cheat wont expose he is a cheater. A magician readily does. A real liar will not tell you he is lying, an actor will.

Do you go to a movie and get pissed that someone called Christian bale "Bruce Wayne?" No. Because it's a lie we accept, so can it really be considered a lie?

My .02

-ThrallMind

 

[ZimFasa]

Actors are the same way. They lie about who they are, and they cheat about how things are done. Did Neo REALLY fly and fight off all of those Agent Smiths? Moreso, is Neo even real?

The difference between those who really lie, cheat, and steal and us as entertainers, is our audience is allowing aware of all this. A real cheat wont expose he is a cheater. A magician readily does. A real liar will not tell you he is lying, an actor will.

Do you go to a movie and get pissed that someone called Christian bale "Bruce Wayne?" No. Because it's a lie we accept, so can it really be considered a lie?

My .02

-ThrallMind

Thats a good point.
It's the bad magicians that spoil our name. Not the ones who don't practice, but the ones who claim to have actual "powers".
Like, whever I'm asked how did I do it? I say Magic. But then when people say "Really?" or "You can't actually do real magic." I say no, of course not. It's just practiced sleight of hand.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

"Mainly my reasoning is that no one thinks you are during or after a magic trick."
Of course no one would think you are cheating. You aren't in that type of atmosphere. If you won a poker game by cheating and you were suspected, then obviously people would be thinking "Oh.... he just cheated..." However, with magic, you aren't going for personal gain. (Well, you are... but not that they are aware of.) Its just something very fun and astonishing. You can't get around the fact though that in order to do magic, you have to lie and cheat.

"There was a saying that I heard growing up and it was that the job of the artist is to convince the world of his lie. Meaning that what he creates isn't real, but its ok to enjoy it for what it is. As an artist, that's your job. Magic is one of those things, people have to believe our lie. If they don't, it doesn't work." -Joel Paschall

-Doug

I can agree that technically you aren't telling the truth when you do magic. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that a better word would be fooling rather than lying/cheating. Because the audience expects it and accepts it, it's hard to really consider it as a lie (which I would put in the category of bad ethics). Since we're focused on ethics, it's basically widely accepted that lying/cheating are bad ethics. I hate to see those types of terms tied to magic and giving off the impression that magicians are ethically wrong.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Jerry Andrus? Anyone???

Jerry was a genius. He also refused to lie to his audiences. So, it can be done.

But, the very fact that we are magicians, and magicians are known to use deception essentially makes us - to quote Swiss - honest liars.

More interestingly, a smart magician avoids lying him or herself and instead sets up situations which lead an audience to draw correct conclusions based on false premises. These premises are usually based on assumptions - assumptions made by the audience. The magician need not lie, nor cheat, nor steal.

He or she merely needs to orchestrate a context which allows a normal human beings intelligence to deceive themselves.

That is where the most effective magic comes from.

brad Henderson