Ethics Question

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by worldwideme, Aug 21, 2010.

  1. ok guys i've got one.

    recently i've been working on some rubber band stuff. and out of curiosity i tried to duplicate David Jades Pixel just at home goofing around. and i figured out the basics of it. but i discovered a neat way to achieve the effect. i can't be sure if its in the download. but my way looks a lot different then the demo video.

    so my question is, would it be unethical for me to perform my take on the effect?
     
  2. How would it possibly be unethical? Your preforming a created effect.
     
  3. Hello Web,

    I think it would be fine for you to perform it for spectators and on your own, but putting it up on youtube might expose the method.

    If it doesn't expose anything, and you clearly state that you were inspired by David Jade's Pixel in the credits/description of the video then there shouldn't be any problems with this.

    It is always best to purchase effects and check for yourself just to be sure. It is pretty affordable too. ;)

    Regards,
    -Tim
     
  4. I think he means that because he didn't buy it. You know that ordeal goes, if you didn't buy it you shouldn't perform it. However, if it is a self conceived method I'm pretty sure you can still do it. I have the download of Pixel, I'll be happy to know what your version is and help you on it.

    -Casey
     
  5. What? So your saying that If I watched a video. Lets say pressure. And figured it out. I shouldn't preform it unless I bought it anyways?
     
  6. I think it's just not tasteful or bad form to perform it if you "figured it out." I just don't think that you can really fully know what you're performing.

    To answer the OP i don't think its a problem to perform your effect but i would highly suggest buying Pixel because it might help you even further.
     
  7. Even if your not preforming it EXACTLY like the normal way you are still preforming the effect with your own style. Even if its not the original method. Its more original.

    BUT...it's not ok to go fish for the method by purposly looking at videos on Youtube of kids preforming it. But if I see a preview video and figure it out or think up my own method, I see no problem in preforming it.

    Now selling it is different and completely unethical.
     
  8. before i begin, WHAT THE HECK?!?! theory11 your notification system has a bug. i selected the 'notified instantly by email' option. no notification

    Casey, i'll probably shoot you a pm here shortly.

    yes Jacob, its basically stealing if you don't purchase it and simply figure it out from the demo. its no better than watching an exposure vid on youtube.

    thanks for all the responses.

    i might not have been clear. but i figured out the original method for pixel. then while continuing to fiddle, came to my own method. is it still cool to perform it?
     
  9. Ok...I guess we have 2 different views on ethics.

    The point of buying it is to learn the method.

    If you figure it out. Than whats the point of buying it?

    If your walking down the street and you find an iPod sitting there. Do you run out to the apple store and pay 200 for it?
     
  10. To me, it's like "Shapeshifter". How many of you perform it?.... How many of you bought the DVD?..... Exactly. It's fine.
     
  11. the ethics question comes about if you take credit for the effect. if you figured it out from watching the demo... good for you! you just saved yourself some money. If you came up with your own method for the effect that's even better. You should check to see if your method does differ from the original before claiming credit for your version. I agree, as well, that you should not put it up on youtube if you expose the original method.
    bottom line. if you credit inspiration from the original effect and your method does differ then there is nothing wrong. look at penn and teller. they constantly rework old routines and devise their own method. Same goes for Daniel Madison and many other great magicians.
     
  12. I'm consistently amazed at how a community that constantly harps on ethics can toss them aside so casually.

    Regarding the idea of figuring it out from the demo video: Did you come up with the idea? No. Would you have without seeing the demo video? There's no way of knowing, but up 'til then you didn't so my money is on 'no'. Therefore, you got an idea from someone else, then took their creativity and recreated it. You are stealing their information just as if you pirated the video. The only thing you're not getting is their insight on the performance, and the certainty that your method is the same.

    Regarding the OP's post, well, I already disagree with the idea that you were figuring things out from the demo, but if you think you've created an independent method then I'd contact the David Jade and verify that your method isn't part of the video he sells. Or just buy it, and give the guy some respect.

    Seriously people. All the justifications in the world don't change the fact that you're using someone else's idea without compensating them. This is precisely why I will never release anything to the magic world.
     
  13. Exactly what im saying.
     
  14. #14 Jacob, Aug 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2010
    Its the method to an effect. YOU figured it out. You never seeked any exposure video. Its not like you walked up to the warehouse and stole the DVD.

    Geez. You people are too caught up on ethics.

    Im sure all of you buy all your music from iTunes or the stores right? No you use LWire like the rest of us.

    Wait a second. If you hear a song on youtube do you rush out and buy it because the creators didnt make any money off that video view you know! So unethical. SMH
     
  15. So you're also saying you will never perform any original effects, in fear that someone will see it and try to feed off of your creativity?

    Take music for example, people make covers of songs, arrangments, parodies, etc. Pirating the video, and figuring out your own method (even if it is the same) are way different. The first one, you're stealing. The second one, you're smart enough to come up with your own method, or a spin off of the orignal method.

    It's like me saying I saw a demo of someone doing CMH, and found out how to do it. Now, I wouldn't be able to perform the effect until I take five minutes to credit every one who contributed to the effect.

    Now lets get to the real point. You figured out you're method and whatnot, but now you want to sell the effect and make money. THEN you are breaking some ethical lines without contacting David Jade, and crediting.

    I found my own way to do Daniel Garcia's "Jacobs Ladder", and I perform it just fine. Are you saying I need to go purchase 'Symphony' to justify me performing the effect? I think not.
     
  16. Very presumptuous and also not terribly clear. Are you assuming I've performed stuff that I haven't paid for? Also, what makes you think that when you buy a magic DVD you're paying for the media? You're not. You're paying for the idea and the method.

    Yes. I have strong ethics and I live by them. I pay for music, movies, books, etc. Don't go assuming that just because you have different values that everyone agrees with you or does the same as you just so it salves your conscious.
     
  17. So your telling me that you've never listened to a song on youtube before you bought it?
    Your seeing if you like it. Whether it be a new band or a new song.

    If I discover the method to an effect. Ill go out and preform it to see how it goes. If It goes well, Ill buy the DVD. If it doesnt, than I wont and wont continue to preform the effect.
     
  18. never heard a song on the radio? same thing as youtube to me.
     
  19. First off, I haven't said anything like that and it's not an entirely related argument. Hearing the song before you buy the album would be like seeing the demo before buying the trick. Second, the point is not whether you blindly buy things but whether you are compensating the creator/performer/publisher for the product, and also what the product actually is. By that I mean that if you see an effect you like and you can figure out how it's done without buying the actual product, you're still ethically obligated to pay that creator because you did not come up with the idea. If you watch the demo, then figure out an idea, you're still getting that information without compensating the creator. You might as well be pirating the video, it's the same from the creator's point of view. If you then buy the product, then sure, I'm fine with that. If you figure out a method but never perform the trick, I'm also fine with that. But if you watch a demo, then try to duplicate the effect, and in that process create a different effect (as in the OP) I still think you should compensate the creator of that first effect, because that was the catalyst to you figuring out your idea.

    Also, because this is really bugging me. PERform. PER. Not PREform. Preform means to shape or form beforehand.
     
  20. Wow, what a lot of specious thinking.

    First, obtaining one's ideas ethically does not prevent someone from ever creating original material, nor does it stifle creativity in others. There is nothing wrong with developing ideas of others - as long as those ideas were obtained ethically.

    If I go to YOUR show, notebook in hand, and proceed to record all of your tricks - original or otherwise - and then return home with the intention of figuring out how to do them, I think we could agree that is unethical. Now, the way to change that scenario is simple - just ask the performer if it is ok to work on their ideas.

    Magic is interesting in that sometimes magicians happily share their ideas with others. Sometimes via personal communications, sometimes through magazine subscriptions, and sometimes by selling their ideas to their peers.

    The answer is simple - if you get your idea from someone else, then you should respect THEIR desires regarding their ideas.

    If you buy their idea, then of course you are allowed to use it.

    But what if you take their idea without paying for it - say, by figuring it out?

    Is that being respectful of the creator? Are you being intellectually honest with yourself - I mean, would you have figured out what you did WITHOUT the inspiration and work of the other magician having been presented to you?

    If the answer is no (and it almost always is) then you owe a debt to that magician who inspired you. What kind of debt? Well, ask them? Or, if you don't want to, then just think about it.

    Does that magician seem to expect people to use his idea for free - did he publish it in a magazine or tip it online? If so - have it at. Or does it seem that the magician expects people to pay for the use of his idea - does he sell it? If so - then yes, to not pay him for the idea - an idea without which you would have NOTHING - would be if not unethical, at least classless and rude.

    Some people are ok being classless and rude.

    The comparison between music and magic is not a bad one - if it were made honestly. Right now, posters are suggesting that listening to a song without paying for it and performing a trick without paying for it are the same.

    Not so.

    If you would like to perform a copyrighted song written by a famous songwriter, you MUST license it. You cannot even get away with just buying the cd or the sheet music. If you want to realize the value of performance of someone else's work, then not only ethically but LEGALLY you must pay for it.

    I happen to feel the same about magic. If you want to receive the value of performance, then you should pay for it. You are not buying a trick JUST for the method, as suggested by one poster. You are buying the trick for the right to perform it.

    Finally, the notion that simply because some people break laws or choose to engage in unethical acts sometimes, makes them ok all the time is ridiculous. Sure, some people download music without paying for it. Some people kill people and litter. That doesn't make it right.

    Here's why those who are about to dismiss my post should care: When you stop rewarding those who create ideas and share them, they will stop sharing and maybe even creating. Many of you may not have heard of the names Pressley Guitar or John Cornelius - but they are true magic geniuses. None of them release anything anymore, one is completely out of magic - why? Because when you give and give and give only to see your gifts ripped off by others, you start to ask, "what's the point?"

    I personally know several magicians - names you recognize - who will not release their strongest material to the community. Some will not even demonstrate their material at magic conventions, except among their trusted friends.

    The attitudes expressed in this thread only serve to close the opportunities and resources available to magicians throughout the world.

    As Jon Racherbaumer once observed, There is a lot of amazing magic out there, and most magicians will never get to see it.

    This is why.
     

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