Help with cards in bottle.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Crimson Ace, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Hey guys,

    As I'm sure all of you have already seen an Anything is possible bottle I'm not going to get into how cool they are. But here is where I need help. see the other day I showed a video of one of them to my girlfriend and she instantly thought that it was one of the coolest things ever. So I decided that I would make one for her as part of her Christmas gifts. Now I'm by far not a certain Canadian who can do this like a wizard. But I want to make it look really good nonetheless. But I'm hitting a few roadblocks. If anyone has made one of these before and wouldn't mind helping me out with mine please PM me. I need help with making a certain part look natural. As usual any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks all.
     
  2. I'm sorry but I still feel this is Jamie's thing. I won't help, however I do encourage you to buy her one from Jamie. Help support one of our own forum members!
     
  3. That or you could wonder around the world. I'm not sure all of his bottles have been found yet.....probably be cheaper just to buy one.
     
  4. Sorry, but I'm afraid to say that if you can't do it by yourself, then don't.
    People who make these AIP bottles such as myself don't share secrets or tips. Not to be cruel, but it's just the way it is.
    I'd just buy one from Jamie and save yourself the trouble.
     
  5. I never post on these forums, but I am a lurker. I had to sign in and respond.

    If you feel inspired to make your own bottle- go for it. If it comes out less than perfect, which it most likely will, who cares. Try again. Your girlfriend might even appreciate it more. The first bottle might come out so lousy, but will mean more to you as a reminder that you set a goal to go after.

    As much as I appreciate anyone that makes these nice bottles for a living - its not "their" thing. No one can make them quite like how they do, so all the more reason to find a way to do it on your own. In fact, that's what magic and innovation is all about. Yes you can buy from others, that option will be there if you wish to support them in the future. But why not make your own in the meantime ... make anything! Experiment, and make mistakes - I'm sure you'll surprise yourself, as corny as that sounds.

    Let those help you, help you. For those who don't want to help- don't discourage him/her from doing so.
     
  6. I'm not sure if I totally agree with it but the cards in bottle have become somewhat of a magic effect themselves. The secret behind it is guarded as such. I don't know if I agree totally but that's the way it is.
     
  7. Hey guys I see what you all mean about these bottle being sacred. And believe me I have a great respect for people like Jamie who make them. Yes I could just buy one but to me that didn't seem special. My girlfriend and I are both artists so we have a desire to make things. And because of that I wanted to try my hand at this. I feel as though if someone inspires me I should do my best to inspire them. I don't plan on making these and selling them at all. In fact I feel that it will be a more effective gift if I only make one complete piece. So Mr Draven please understand that I mean Jamie no disrespect in my actions. Danny I understand what you are saying. As an artist I have many secret techniques that I dont always share with others. So I get what you are saying. And you're a fellow Long Islander I see. I promise that i'm not crazy I was just scrolling down and saw that. Didnt know that I had any fellow magicians around me aside from the two at my college. So that's pretty cool. Jimmy thank you for your kind words. They meant a lot. And i'm now that much more inspired to create something amazing. So thank you for taking the time to log in and write that post.
     
  8. #8 William Draven, Dec 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2011
    Jimmy, welcome to the forums, and I'm glad you've finally chosen now as the time to stop lurking, and start participating. However to the best of my knowledge there is only one person making a living from doing the deck in bottles, and that person is Jamie Grant. It's his thing. I know of no other who sells this product.

    The problem I have with this statement is that it makes me feel like you aren't considering all the possible points of view here, and encouraging someone for the sake of doing so. Not all decisions are good ones, some are illegal, some are immoral, some are unethical, while others still remain in the grey realm of not good ideas (for what ever reason).

    Forgive me Jimmy, but I can't help but feel that making a AIP knock off bottle would be one of those. A mistake that is.

    This is the way I see it. Apple makes the Iphone, a device a lot of people love to use. If someone were to go out and buy all the necessary parts, and assemble their own Iphone from scratch, install their own knock off Iphone OS, and slap an Apple logo on the back; what they may have is an Iphone, but it's not a legit one. It's an imitation at best, at worst it's infringing on Apple's product. Removing the obvious legal questions from this above hypothetical problem we still have the remaining moral problem. The moral issue being whether it's right or wrong to intentionally build a direct copy of another's well known, established, (and in this case trademarked) product? Sure other similar products have emerged since the Iphone's debute, but other companies are smart enough to alter or change something about the design, look, or function, thus making it similar but different enough that Apple won't pursue them for intellectual property, copy right, or other trademark issues. But we're not talking about making similar (but different) bottles here. We're talking about strait up reproducing what Mr. Grant does.

    Let's bring this down a notch, and look at it from a magicians perspective. Let's say that you Mr. Jimmy Chung (or any of you on this board for that matter) have spent the last ten years of your life dedicated to the pursuit of mastering cardistry. Let's say you've gotten so bloody damn good at it that your moves are what you are known for. People book you to travel around the world to show off your leet skillz. Roxorz! Lets purpose that you've gotten so good at this, and so well known for your talent that you've got a couple of moves that you created that are indeed original to you, and these moves are what you've become known for. Now let's assume that you've got performance videos somewhere online (your website, maybe even youtube) that some teenager has watched, dissected, and analyzed. This kid is going around posting videos to all the forums showing off your stuff! What's worse, he's getting credit for doing your material. How would that make you feel?

    I'll tell you right now that if there is a man (or woman) among you who tells me it wouldn't bother you then either you are so far in denial it's not funny OR you have an unrealistic perspective on this situation because I'm positive that if this happened to you "pissed" would be an understatement. Perhaps hurt would be another emotion that you'd experience. These are card moves, sure anyone can perform them. Sure you can't copy right them, but it's YOUR thing. It's what YOU'RE known for and this upstart is doing your act. Frankly you'd have every right to be pissed. The sad thing is this kind of piracy happens all the time. Sometimes it's out right intentional, other times it is more accidental as the intentions are good natured, but it still happens.

    The Anything Is Possible bottle (AKA, card box in bottle), and the subsequent empowering motivational message behind it is something Mr. Grant has become known for inside our community, not just here at Theory11 but with magicians around the world. I've personally witnessed him carry on full conversations, effortlessly, with huge names in our industry because he's earned their respect for his work. That and he's also friends with them too which helps. Unlike other so called magicians with their greasy used car salesman vibe, and alternative motivations to market their own blogs and self improvement products that we've seen here in the past; Jamie has given freely of his time and his experience to this community with his informative essays with expecting nothing in return. No bait and switch, no asking you to buy his stuff. Just good, solid, real world advice from a real world worker. The only thing he ever asks from you is that you use his essays to make yourself a better magician. Jamie is an inspiration, and someone I think we all should be looking up to. Especially if you aren't working in our industry, and aspire to do so someday. In light of his good nature, and open desire to help people out here on this forum with their magic, we (the community) repay him by holding open conversations about how to recreate the one thing he's become known for. Sorry guys, that doesn't sit right with me.

    As I said the AIP bottle is Jamie's thing, and regardless of how many sources are available explaining how this is accomplished I don't feel like this is something we all need to be openly talking about on a forum, and especially one Jamie is known to frequent. It's a hard slap in the face, and one he doesn't deserve. If you want to produce one of these bottles for yourself, your girlfriend, your pet rock, what ever then do so. Obviously we can't stop you, and it's not like the morality police will come beat your door down, but for god's sake people use some tact and don't openly discuss it like this! I would hope that you're only trying to produce a single bottle, and not say mass produce them with the intent to sell. That just begs for trouble. Honestly, I think you're in that grey area that is good natured, and done with good intentions, but I don't see it being executed properly.

    I get the artist thing. If you want to make her something then it should certainly come from your heart. Taking Jamie's thing, and just reproducing it may be crafty but that's hardly from the heart. Why don't you make her a shadow box, and put some of her favorite things inside of it, represented of course, and if you seriously want to be nauseatingly sweet then intertwine elements of things she loves one one side, elements of things you love on the other, and in the middle elements of things you both love together. That will have more meaning, and emotional importance to her than just some knockoff of an AIP bottle. If that doesn't work for you, then think of something that will! You're an artist (you said so yourself) so create something! Honestly, if you want to give someone an AIP bottle, then the best way to do it is to buy it from Jamie directly, but I don't agree with posts like this. You wouldn't want someone to take and perform/do your ideas, so why would you want to do that to someone else?
     
  9. Hey just wanted to pop in and share my thoughts.

    Draven you bring up some really good points, however I feel you are a bit misinformed. Luckily, I've known you long enough on the forums that you are open to learning something new. Obviously there have been ships in bottle for years, but when it comes to putting cards in bottles, Jamie was not the first. Harry Eng (1932-1996) was a magician, inventor, school teacher and educationalist by trade, was the one who made these types of bottles popular. Now while it's true that Jamie is probably one of the more well known Impossible Bottle Makers out there, he is not the only one who does this to the extent that he does. Off hand here are two sites that are from professional Impossible Bottle Makers

    - http://www.impossibottle.co.uk/
    - http://bottlemagic.com/

    Like I said, as these bottles are not actually Jamie's, I wouldn't say him trying to make his own was in either the immoral/illegal or grey categories. I don't think it's really fair to discourage him from trying. Based off his forum post he just wants to make one as a gift, not as a means of income. While its true that typically these impossible bottle makers keep these secrets to themselves, we of all people should understand that its ok to teach those genuinely interested. Imagine if we discouraged every budding magician from learning because its "Copperfield's thing", then no one would get into magic. Obviously these bottle makers do pass on their secrets to those who are genuinely interested in the art and wish to pursue it.

    That being said, maybe instead of asking a magic forum for help, Crimson, you should consider trying to contact some of these bottle makers directly. While they may not tell you everything, they may put you on the right path. If nothing else it wouldn't hurt to try yourself. I'm an artist myself and I know that often when trying to learn a new technique, or style, or process, I typically start figuring out how it works the more I try.

    Just wanted to pop in. Theres a lot of really interesting history behind these bottles, I myself have actually been contemplating making some for a while now, which is why I've done the research.

    ~Josh
     
  10. Hiya Gang!

    I guess I'll chime in here~ which I hate doing as I have to be careful not to come across as some sort of art snob %#^^ *#* (you can make up whatever that is, lol).

    First off: a special thanks to Monsieur Draven. It's always cool when friends got your back. I hope you're all that lucky to have someone like him!

    Secondly: Josh is 100% correct. I am in no way the first, or only, person to create impossible bottles. I've never said that (thankfully) and I don't think I will until I hit about a hundred years old and I can say what I want. Impossible bottles have been around for hundreds of years, and come in many different forms. (An interesting side note: did you know that none of Harry Eng's~ who has amazing work~ had the cellophane on the deck? Mine do ,obviously. Hurrah!) That said, I think it's fair to say that I took my art in a bit of a different route. I personally feel (get your stones ready to throw, lol) that I brought the "Anything Is Possible" bottle to a different level and made a certain crossover from art to magic and then back again. It's taken me my life's devotion to do that and, as a result, you can probably understand why I want to protect that. And that brings me to the crux of this thread. Art aside, and all that that entails, basically what's happening here is (and I KNOW that it isn't being done on purpose. I know that. But...):

    A) We're asking how to make a product that Theory 11 sells. (would you ask how Calen does Dresscode because you want to do it with a different shirt? Or would you publicly ask how he does it at all?)

    and,

    B) We're saying that just because you're not going to sell it that it doesn't matter. Unfortunately, for artists, that matters a lot. (would you copy out the latest magic book and give it to a pal?)

    But I need to stop there before I get out of hand! (I hate confrontation, lol). Let me just end this (hopefully!) with these thoughts:

    1) The Anything Is Possible bottle is a great gift, lol! Really! It doesn't mean any less because you didn't make it. I can't make a Lexus and my wife would probably love one!
    2) If you don't want to buy one from me, don't make a Jamie D. Grant "Anything Is Possible" bottle. Make a "John Smith I believe We Can All Fly" bottle and do something different. Find your vision. Find yourself. That's all I ask. Take the time to find a different path. Find yours.

    Send Wonder,

    jamie
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Hey Jamie I'm glad you stepped in! I think you made some fantastic points, especially the part about these types of bottles being sold on T11, which is EXACTLY why I suggested that Crimson try someplace else in his quest to make impossible bottles. I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful with my post, I was never telling him to copy your bottles, I was trying to encourage him to make a "John Smith I believe We Can All Fly" bottle, as you put it. I just didn't want him to get discouraged from pursuing a new art form. Again I mean no disrespect, I absolutely love your bottles. On a side note, the fact that your cards are still sealed in the cellophane is WHY I love your bottles, every time I see one it just blows me away!

    ~Josh
     
  12. Draven, you make some great points as always.

    You are right actually - with the apple example, etc. If I were to make an impossible bottle using the exact same bottle, cork, string and message, and say it was an exact copy of anyone's piece and idea - that's a no no.

    If I were to buy all the parts of an iphone and build one myself, and put a sticker on and say its an iphone, and sell it as such - apple would have a problem with that I'm sure.

    My post was referring to - experimentation and innovation, which comes from inspiration. Not full on copying - which is pretty difficult to do because everyone has their secrets anyway. My point was, let them keep their secrets - and come up with your own, your bottle might come out better to you this way.

    People admire the iphone... apple in general. look around - all the computers have changed to resemble the mac, haven't they?

    My phone at the moment, is an android - and I have to say, it operates similarly to the iphone interface. even the charger - looks exactly like apple's phone charger. I'm sure they are different in their own ways, and there is a market for both companies. Pc's and androids were inspired by the mac - and came up with their own spin. Now some would say the galaxy is better than the iphone. Some would argue differently. I'm sure apples NEXT phone will be even better, rather than just claim everyone is copying them.
     
  13. I can't help thinking that keeping it such a close guarded secret is a bad thing. I believe that putting things in bottles is brilliant, and a really awesome thing, but if it is kept so closely guarded, what will happen when people like Jamie who create these stop making them, or in worst circumstances die? The art to create something so wonderful will die with them, leaving everyone without something amazing.

    If there is information out there that tells you how to make them, I think we should help and post the link to it, even if its a £60 book on a really obscure website or something like that. It has been clearly stated that he in no way wishes to copy Jamie's bottle, and does want to do something different, but without knowing the basics he isn't going to be able to even attempt to create his own bottle.

    Thats just my view point, and although it is a T11 product what he wants to create will be completely different to it, and so I think its ok to divulge certain bits of information to help him out.

    Simon_Magic
     
  14. Seems as if Jamie is charging the going rate for these things. I checked one of the other "Stuff in Bottles" sites and it was on par price wise, and the bottle didn't look quite as cool. So if your purpose is to buy a gift it seems as if that would be a good option to go with. If your purpose truly is to "make" a gift because you want to give her an artistic gift that you made yourself....then do exactly what Jamie said. Use his bottles as inspiration only, and then let your own artistic sensibility guide to you to your own method and "Look."
     
  15. If it were me trying to make the gift, I would find something that was important to her (not a deck of cards) and some how manage to get it into the bottle or a similar "impossible location" to create the wonderful gift.

    My creative juices are about dead for tonight probably because I've just graded 60 math and english tests but I'll think some more tomorrow. Ha Ha.
     
  16. Everybody loves finals!
     
  17. Jamie's bottles are great. I love mine, and can't recommend them enough.

    That being said, there is a method to put a deck into a bottle, in the box, which is widely published and available in a book many people on this forum probably have. It won't be in the cellophane.

    And THAT being said, I still say Jamie's is my favorite. I may make one of my own impossible bottles just as my own project some day, but I understand that it's a lot of work and just won't be as good as my AIP Bottle.
     

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