Here We Go...

Sep 3, 2007
2,562
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Europe
Over the past few weeks, I've been debating whether or not to post this thread. For a while, I thought Sinful's thread titled "Don't Destroy This Place" would be enough... but apparently it's not. Just a warning- this will be a bit of a rant, and a plea for mercy from the relentless YouTube kiddies plaguing this site.

Recently, I've been noticing more and more negativity on these forums. It seems to me like the snowball effect- new members see older members doing it, they think it'll make them look "cool" and "rebellious", so they take on the mean attitude, as well. It needs to be stopped.

The thing that really pushed me over the edge was all this "controversy" over "Death to the Double Undercut". I was appalled by what people were saying about theory11, DttDU, and Joel himself. I seriously almost clicked the big red "X" and left this place for good.

I guess I just don't get some people around here. The point of these forums is to discuss magic, help others, learn... all the good stuff. Instead, it has become a place where all the kids that "tipe lyke dis" go because they "wnt to lrn da nxt bezt tryck" and all that crap.

Magic, at its core- is an artform. However, in recent months, at least on here- it hasn't been shared with fellow artists as one. As an art, magic deserves respect. That means typing like you have at least some comprehension of the English language and how it works, being respectful towards others... all that stuff.

Anyways- back to DttDU. Even I have to admit- it wasn't the best 1on1 ever released- it was simple, maybe a little obvious to some of us magicians/flourishers, but does that take away from its value? If anything, it adds to it. Simple, to me, is always better. That means less practice time, better presentation, if it's magic, etc.

The price, also was a little high, but JB showed theory11's true colors, in a good way, and fixed that.

But beyond that- I was just... amazed at some of the members here. Amazed at how they come to this community, supposedly having some interest in art, and so therefore probably a little respect for it, as well, but think because they're just a username on a website, that they can get away with "eating Joel alive", so to speak.

Joel is a professional magician, a theory11 artist, and an all-around good guy- he doesn't deserve some of the crap he gets around here. And on that note, Bayme or theory11 itself doesn't deserve any of it, either.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is- grow up! Show some respect for our art- both in the way you type, and the way you treat people. It may just be the internet, and you may not care if you upset people, because it is the internet, but think about the image you're portraying towards the new people in magic.

I have a lot of other subjects I would love to talk about, but I feel this post is long enough as it is. I doubt it will help, but the forums need a change in a big way- and I for one want to be one of the people that help start this change. It pains me to see the quality of these forums on such a downhill slide. They used to be a good place to come- but now it seems like they have brown eyes (full of crap, FYI).

And that's not directed towards any of the better members here (Sinful comes to mind, as well as people like Steerpike, DevinHenderson, Shodan, Medifro, Morgician, etc.)... just the people asking what the should get next. God forbid THEY decide what they want.

Anyways, I'll get off my soap box now.
 
Agreed, i'll just quote myself from an old thread about static when people were whining over how simple it was

\At first i thought wow this sucks when i saw the cut, but after awhile i realized two things 1) The Theory 11 Crew works hard to release a one on one every friday so instead of thinking about how simple or "noobish" it is, we should be happy we get a new effect/sleight each week for such a fair price and if we don't like the one on one released then don't buy it theres still 4 more to come in month. And 2) Each week the one on one isn't going to be some extreme hardcore flourish or knuckle busting sleights, they mix it up a bit to appeal to everyone. So to sum it all up if you don't like it don't buy it, practice the tricks you own until next week.

Of course $4.95 was a bit much for what it was and theory11 owned up to their fault and changed DttDU to a reasonable $2.95 which earned a little more of my respect, Considering they did not have to do that at all. And I really cant stress my point enough of theory11 is working hard ALL the time its amazing they get us new 1on1 videos each week, after everyone was asking for them to be more frequent then mostly everyone complains when a simple cut or effect is released. you cant have your cake and eat it too, if you don't like what's released for you don't buy and practice the stuff you have.
 
Oct 19, 2007
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I'll get off my soap box now.[/QUOTE]

haha that made me laugh

but I agree 110% haven't spent much time on the forums lately just stopping in here in there, but what been going on lately?
 
Someone will become a mod soon. Well it seems that your fan boy wings are starting to blossom into a fugly butterfly. Good enough yet. How can people express them selves if everything will be in a good orderly family friendly matter. "Go fudge yourself for all I care". It really shouldn't bother you. Just forget about and return to what you do. This is the internet. We won't have a perfect forum.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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How can people express them selves if everything will be in a good orderly family friendly matter.

The problem is that for most of you, the idea of constructive criticism is an alien one. And if anyone tells you why you're being a prat, you immediately pull out the "freedom of speech" card and the "fanboy" attack card.

This site is heavily populated with a bunch of jackals only looking out for Number 1. J. Bayme knocks the price down in a gesture of humility and customer service, and some people come up out of the woodwork to say it wasn't enough. Jesus cross-dressing Christ on a bike...
 
Jun 24, 2008
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United States
i completely agree with you, the threads are getting out of hand way too often, and I'd like to help any way possible just as a bunch of other magicians do. I hope people actually listen to this thread.
 
Oct 31, 2007
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I tried this once... didn't go over so well but that was my own fault... still sorry bout that Steerpike. Anyways, I'm glad other people notice the same thing. I totally agree with this post and it was said a lot better than I could have said.

Here's my thing: People come on here and disrespect others when all they want is help. That doesn't look good to them, obviously. What about those people's audiences. If people come on here and treat other magicians as if they are dirt, as if magic is a competition to see who knows the most and who can spout off the most information first, then how do they treat their audiences?

It makes me worried because I'm a part of the magic community and I don't want other people's bad reputation of being mean magicians ruining it for me before I even perform.

Orin10
 
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
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Europe
Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen of the jury:

Someone will become a mod soon. Well it seems that your fan boy wings are starting to blossom into a fugly butterfly. Good enough yet. How can people express them selves if everything will be in a good orderly family friendly matter. "Go fudge yourself for all I care". It really shouldn't bother you. Just forget about and return to what you do. This is the internet. We won't have a perfect forum.

I couldn't care less if I was a Mod or not. It might be cool, but I don't want to get all sucked up in a power craze- sounds like me. lol I just want this to be a place where we can come and talk about magic- we don't need an Off-Topic Section... we just need some good quality posters.

Getting insulted, bad language- none of that bothers me. It's the lack of respect for our art and other people that bothers me.
 
Sep 1, 2007
655
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Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen of the jury:

I agree that this forum is on a decline and something needs to be done, but Jamal is one of the few remaining good posters imo, so the good posters need to stop arguing with each other, and do something about the bad ones...
 
Sep 1, 2007
105
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Missouri, USA
It seems that every day this topic comes up. It's a bit bothersome. To be honest, this is just an internet forum. It's fine the way it is, you just have to get used to ignoring a good bit of the content. If you're looking for a professional view on magic, perhaps you should look into forums where professional magicians review products and the like. All in all, you really shouldn't spend much time on a forum in the first place. Come to search for something specific, and if you find something of your interest during the process then explore it.

As for me, I skip a majority of the content on here. Honestly, I still spend too much time reading it, but that's because I want to have a valuable input for the other people involved. Generally, I only read posts of people I've learned have something important to say. Learn to skip the annoying and overall bad content. Sure it's disheartening to see people attack T11 and its artists, but they're big boys and I think they can understand not to take anything somebody says on here too seriously.

Still, they show that they are willing to put their best in the site and forums, and that's what you should personally worry about. Don't worry about the rest.

Peace
:)
 
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
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Europe
Like I said- I'm more concerned with the lack of respect and arrogance around here than anything. But apparently that's a bad thing. :rolleyes:
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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If you're looking for a professional view on magic, perhaps you should look into forums where professional magicians review products and the like.

Unfortunately, trends in forums like what you see here are exactly why you don't see more professionals visiting.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,572
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Leicester, UK
www.youtube.com
As much as I agree with everything you and Doug have said and as much as I really wish it could eventually happen... I just know it won't.

You're always gonna get people that just want to cause trouble whenever they can, but still post a decent post here or there that keeps them out of trouble. (I hate to say it but lets be honest most of these are from Decknique and do put me off visiting it; to which I'm sure the response would be "We don't want you there anyway" which would prove my point; Note: I'm not saying Decknique is bad, merely the feeling that some of it's members seem to be giving here).

It's nice to hope and proclaim but, Jonesy buddy, you're preaching to the choir - Most of the people reading and thinking out a decent response to your thread agree with you and each day try and accomplish this. Unfortunately, the ones that do need to read it, will just see it as some kind of suck up to the team and make gay jokes or claim you're after a mod position with no further reference to your thoughts.

I don't mean to be Mr. Negativity... I really don't, I'm just seeing the reality of the situation, this is a public website where any ol' wilde coyote can sign up and post away without fear of having anything done for a decent while; two cases in point, BrianationX and our newly beloved Prestidigitator.

I'm sure I've got more to say but something else'll trigger it, for now I'll leave it at that.

- Sean
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
0
Europe
I understand- I just needed a place to vent. Maybe theory11 should start charging like $5 a month for access to the forums... I'm sure that would weed out some of them. But not keep the profit- give it to Magic for Darfur or something like that. I would be all for that. Oh well... I guess it'll never change- never hurts to vent, though!
 
*cough* Cough* Excuse me fellas. I'm in the middle of a party and I'm a bit excited at the moment. I don't really know what I wrote above so just pretend it never excited.;)

Alright. IMO I don't think there will ever be the day that members of this site will be respectful, nice, happy, etc. One reason is opinion. Everyone has a different opinion. When someone hears your opinion getting rejected then they tend to get a little angry. For example.

Noob#1 says- Wynns are the best cards in the world. I love these cards and highly recommend them.
Noob#2 says- Wynns suck ass. Your obviously a noob and don't know **** about cards.
Now someone should say please guys everyone has an opinion. Or they should say " settle this argument over pm please" Instead...
Smart ass guy says- Both you kids amuse me as to how utterly stupid and ignorant you are.
Thus resulting in a huge argument.
Oh **** I forgot what I was gonna say.:confused:( This is real by the way)
Okay umm in shorter words and probably more understandable words( if that makes sense). We can never change people. All we can do is move them to another location. In other words to the off topic forum. So maybe an off topic forum would be helpful. Hey it works for decknique. Well here are some tips for a more happy forum environment.

. Off topic forum
. Less aggression
. Smilies( alot more like decknique
.Brighter layout.( Black makes everyone mean. Pink should do
. Rep system( Would make me feel special)
. Less seriousness( You guys are too serious)
. Sugar spice and everything nice

Hope that brightens your day. Reps are appreciated. Oh wait we don't have a rep system so I basically wasted my time.:( Hmm what to do now. * Go to another thread* **** all you people you don't know **** about magic.:)
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
All we can do is move them to another location. In other words to the off topic forum. So maybe an off topic forum would be helpful.

Isn't that a bit like having your cat throw up on the couch cushion and instead of cleaning it you just turn the cushion upside-down?
 
Nov 17, 2007
519
1
To be honest. I'm getting a bit tired of these threads. Before I start to rant off, let me just say, I don't mean any disrespect in any way. I am simply just expressing my opinion.

First of all, about the DTTDUC thing, I posted in another thread "5 bucks to learn a variation on the swivel cut? No thanks. Theory11, you can do better." And to this day, I defend that post. I don't think it is disrespectful in any way. I think that people think other people are being disrespectful when they are just expressing an opinion that not everyone agrees on.

To be honest, I WANT to see some negative stuff on here. If ever review is "It is awesome. Buy it now!" they don't become reviews anymore. Every now and then, someone would post a review about something that isn't that good. Then, they would be bashed for being disrepectful. What? Why?? When the DTTDUC got released, I was highly disappointed. As were a lot of others. So, I posted on these forums about how much I was let down. THEN, people would be upset since I didn't say: It is awesome. Buy it now! See what I'm getting at?

Now, another thing, this is an ONLINE FORUM. You can't express emotions here. It is all text. Posts like "This isn't that good." Could be a huge insult or just an opinion being expressed. If a post says: "I hate Joel. I want him to die and burn in hole." THEN I completely agree with you adjones. There is no way that can be constructive and is an unnessasary thought that doesn't need to be posted on the web. BUT, I haven't seen any posts like that. Everything is just an negative opinion. Yes, some are a bit harsher than others, but probably 95% are nothing to waste a thread about.

Well, before I begin to protest, let me just stop here. I hope no one was offended by this post.
 
.Brighter layout.( Black makes everyone mean. Pink should do.
AHA
funniest thing all day. . but that would be sick.

OK
on topic. . .
Look over to the top right of this post. I have what, 8 posts? Not very many. I post mostly over at DnD, but I saw this thread and figured I needed to weigh in as well.

I absolutely 100% agree with you adjones. Forums should be places you learn and grow in the art.

Amen.

Cheers,
CMS

*EDIT: though this forum, after adjones initial post, becomes completely useless, as all we are now doing is expressing our honest opinions. got arguments?
 
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