Herman Pass vs Classic Pass

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by imreallybad, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. #1 imreallybad, Mar 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2011
    Hi guys,
    I have been doing magic for about 2 months, and am finally ready to go into the hand tearing search for perfection of the 'Pass'.

    I have seen them both before know how they work, but prefer the Herman... what do you guys think..

    I think the Herman is easier to cover up, and easier to do quickly. And it achieves the same things as the classic.. However I see tutorials on the Classic everywhere, but the Herman nowhere

    Which one do you guys think is better? =]
  2. I prefer the classic pass because I have worked on it for over a year and can perform it nearly invisibly but I still use the herman for tricky situations and I used the herman more when I was starting out.
    LargeOctopode likes this.
  3. That's cool.. but another thing is that the classic pass can never be FULLY invisible (except if you have been practicing for like 20 years). Whereas the spread, and turnover can (from most angles)...

    Plus the spread pass is amazing because closing the spread is such a moving action, that extra movement from your bottom will not seem odd... whereas in a riffle pass... there is no point for you to be riffling, or jiggling (in a jiggle pass).

    Just a thought =]
    Karo-K54 likes this.
  4. I don't think the classic pass has to be invisible. I have done the pass with me and just one spectator all I had to do is make eye contact and while performing the pass I moved a little closer to them to cover the move. That was the first time ever performing that pass to some one! Plus a riffle right afterwords helps. But Good luck with the Pass you have a lot of work to do. But once the pass starts to become more comfortable and natural than you will really see how people can perform it! Good luck!

    Oh! I vote for the classic pass just to be clear!
  5. Two months in and you are tackling the pass...you're still young in magic. Save your time and practice on other sleights that achieve the same thing, but have more applications. Top steal, side steal, (insert the other thousand of controls that have multiple uses).
  6. Lol, thanks.

    you are probably right.. but where do I learn these steals. I got Erdnase, where I'm sure you can learn the side steal. But that is just too hard to understand (old english) since I am 13. Also I think if I just keep practicing, I can get it quicker... I think the pass will be essential, and when I have to learn it for a trick, I won't have to I'll already know it...

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, and being arrogant.

  7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL0GM0rkZ40

    He does it amazingly fast as a colour change,, but a laymen will surely see something is going on because his hand is moving so much.

    When just doing it as a control... I still think Herman Pass is better, because if you do the midnight shift, it's practicably invisible. And best in tight situations with like 10 spectators, you can't make eye contact with all of them! So doing a turnover pass is so much better.

    =) thanks for the luck wishes.. I actually did my first turnover pass today for a spectator =D
  8. Although the pass is not essential (IMO) but without a doubt it is a great slight to know. All you need is one second of their eyes away from the deck and the move is done. Believe it or not I learned the pass (as in I could do the pass within 1 second) before I could do a proper double lift. o_O

    Anyways, you should learn the classic pass while learning another control. At times it may be frustrating to get the pass down and that is when you switch over to another control to make the most of your time.
  9. Personally, the classic pass takes a second- surely it is within any performer's capability to make eye contact for a second. I really don't think any classic pass is burnable and should not be promoted as being so.

  10. Keep in mind with the Midnight Shift that although it is easy and relatively invisible (loosely using that word) it is also (in my opinion) a rather unnatural action if just done in the hope that because you do that action it instantly makes it invisible.
    For me, the midnight shift is a question of invisibility vs naturalness ie, why are you doing that action after having a card returned to the deck.

    Of course you can also argue the unnaturalness of the bizarre tilting action which many magicians have the impulse to do presuming invisibility is greater than naturalness, no more unnatural.

    Overall do whatever works for you but please do not sacrifice naturalness for "invisibility".
    Hope this helps. :)


    I also apologise for the double post- I only thought of posting this after posting my comment before. :)
  11. Hi,
    Sorry I used the word invisible,i don't know why i did so, but you are quite right about the naturalness... I think most, if not all 'passes' are unnatural, so of course we have to turn to misdirection.

    One thing, what is a good way to get the spectators eyes off the deck of 1-2 seconds?
  12. i like the classic pass.all it takes is very little misdirection and you can do it right in front of a spectors nose.love it
  13. In my experience, lowering the hands and raising your head to make eye contact and ask a question. Unless they are trying to catch you out, a spectator will move their eyes from you hands to your eye level if you are addressing them with a question- it's just human nature.
    Also, having made the pass I will separate my hands and keep the deck held at finger tips- I like this subtlety of saying "Everything's fair" without out saying so.

    Last thing to keep in mind- you don't need to do the pass immediately. If you're unsure, separate the hands and hold the break then make the pass at a time that feels right.

    Juan Tamariz talks about these things more in his book "The Five Points in Magic". Read it.

  14. I'd just like to stop by here and make a comment about EATCT. Not that I dislike it or anything, but magicians highly overrate the book. Most rarely use anything in there except for maybe the palming methods, and it's a dry and boring read throughout most if it. Erdnase isn't the book people make it out to be. It's a good one, and I like it, but not everybody needs.

    And don't worry if you don't understand it. You just have to warm to the writing style. (I'm 14 and I go through some sections fine, but have to re-read others. I suggest reading it from a bigger copy, as the Bible edition's text is way too small to be reading for anything more then the occasional quick reference.)

    Now, about passes. I started learning the mechanics of both these pass variants when I was about 4 months in. It all depends on how experienced you are with cards - knowledge won't make a huge difference on straight up mechanics. I say learn both. I started with a hermann but drifted towards a classic pass, and still use both.
    Karo-K54 likes this.
  15. Just to give my thoughts on this subject :)

    I personally like the classic pass for several reasons:

    1) People have mention doing "eye contact". While this works great with two or three spectators, more people would be a problem. Given the fact that the Classic pass is really fast, you just have to adjust your angles a bit, move from side to side (adressing the people ) and then do the pass. It is truly invisible that way.

    2) I also prefer the classic pass because (personally speaking) I have found that the mechanics in wich the Herman pass work, well it needs more space for the packets to move rather than the classic pass. Also I thing that the spread pass or things like that, are good as covers, but still you are highly exposed on several angles. And they take a little more time to get into.

    3) Who says that you have to do the pass right away? You could apply this to both passes. Of course after they return their card, man, they are going to burn it like hell, they want to know what is going to happen with their card, they want to see that you trully place it in the middle. Doign a pass right away is kinda risky. In my opinion DON'T RISK IT. As simple as that. Just take the card, insert in the deck making a outjog, and just leave it there. Talk a little, interact with your audience a little. Now you have all the time in the world to bring the hands togueter and perform whatever you like with it.

    4) I truly feel more at home with the classic pass. I have been practicing it for around 6 years, and altought I know other controls and pass variations, the classic pass is my control to go.

    So there you have it. count +1 to the classic pass for me
  16. Lot of things I agree with in this thread.

    First of all... 2 months... Pass?
    I don't really think that 2 months is enough time with a deck to be handling it comfortably enough to start trying a pass. And TEATCT? Another thing that at 2 months is not exactly the smartest thing.

    Seriously now. I don't see a reason for you needing to learn a pass. Just cut the deck. As far as I can tell, you want to use it as a control. At 2 months, all I did was do a simple double undercut, and believe me, that's all you need to know.

    If you do in fact want to continue on the huge journey in order to learn the pass... I would suggest.... Chad Nelson's Riffle Pass...
    Yes, I know some people hate that pass, but I find it absolutely amazing. I don't go through the entire system of dribbles, I just do the pass. Before you get this though, try learning the pass by itself. I don't think you will understand the download unless you know the basic fundamentals.

    Overall, I just suggest... Don't start doing the pass...

  17. Depends on whether you've handled a deck often enough before getting into magic. I, for example, spent years playing card games before I even considered magic. So it was an easy transition for me, I guess. I say get comfortable and natural with cards, then attempt whatever you want once you've gotten a basic idea of simple sleights. It's all practice.
  18. Now this is where I am going to stop. You have Erdnase but you don't use it because it is written strangely. I will not spoon feed you information because I feel that method skips the most important tool us magicians seem to forget, Research and study. If you want something enough, you'll find it.
  19. Just my thoughts- Don't listen to the guys telling you not to bother with the pass. Sooner or later you will want one. They are right in saying that there are many better methods for controlling a single card but sometimes you want to keep control of the entire deck. Personally I do "The big Deal" by Josh Jay after several ACR reveals. Passes allow me to keep my stack and control the card at the same time. There are many other reasons for learning the pass...that is just one.

    EACTC-Great book if you are interested in Gambling stuff...good book in understanding many foundational moves in card magic. You don't need it when you are starting out but sooner or later you should study it.

    As for which one?- I say work on both. Harmann and Classic both have a lot of uses, both have pros, and both have weaknesses. For various reasons, (it could be style, or it could be effect selection, or you just find one easier than the other) you will find yourself using one more than the other. Just let that happen naturally and don't get married to one more than the other. Stay open minded.
  20. Just a quick note about the hermann pass:

    I prefer to use variants on the hermann pass. If you find you're having a bit of trouble with it, check out Steve Draun's "flutter pass" and "midnight shift". They're both variants that I use as cover for the move.

    However, I should warn you that his book ("Secrets Draun from Underground") is out of print, so you will have to pay a bit more for it. However, the remainder of the material I have seen of it should justify the price tag (it would for me, anyway).

    However, I believe that after a few months of work on both, if you're going to go the "misdirection" route when using the pass, it's better just to use a classic. It won't matter if they're not looking, and it becomes faster and just as easy as a hermann.

    Hope that helps,

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