How can the art advance if we are not advancing!?

[Mr.MadMan]

Some time ago i was in a chat where a topic raised "How can we advance the art!?". My first impressions of it were quite astonishing, the idiotic answers that came from there blew my mind.

Then it hit me, the amount of people that actually get the question are performing and actually advancing the art.

My thought cycle:

Ive put a lot of thinking into this and every time i get to the same conclusion.

Why the f***k are we thinking about advancing the art if the amount of talent that is getting wasted by not teaching the art of performing, the art of characters and personas.

Magicians most of the time refer to the saying: "I am myself".

Who gives a c**p, if you take an effect that does not go with your persona what good will that do.

Let me elaborate, there are a lot of effects out there and you need to find the ones that suit you, suit you character. Yes you have to do that!
I for one cant perform eg. 5 Speed because my performing style and character is a Psychology-Spirit one. How the heck can i make it understandable to the people that what is going on with the whole thing is actually a psychological game.

I can´t! Because it has too much sleights and unnecessary points in it where it goes against my persona thus weakening it.

The amount of effort ive put into my persona is countless. Ive spent hours thinking what it should be and why it should be that. Im not making myself into somebody else, im just bringing out certain parts of me that strengthen my performance.

Its hard work, work that most of you dont do. You take a stock effect and use it as it is. I love Madisons books because he does not give you patter. The freedom to bond you and the effect.

There are so many performing styles, not just mentalism and magic but there are tons. Comic, Spirit, Classic, Street and so on. There are countless ones and you have to take them and mould them into you. Make them unique to you. And once youve done that you shall see the difference in the response you get and the reactions you get.

Nothing comes easy, but it will come easyer if you are willing to work on it.

Youtube isnt the place to be, its in the open. And we have to think about ourselves before we can think of everyone else.

If i could put a point on where it should go is to school where it will get the knowledge to teach young ones the necessity of persona and performing.

Gut.And.Perform!!!

It will only do you good!

Mikk

 

[FOO:L]

i dont see why people need to put so much deep thought into "advancing the art". Just go do some friggin magic. on youtube, on facebook, on whatever the f**k you want.
The art doesnt need your forums to advance it.

 

[b+w]

I totally agree with you man. A lot of people won't I'm afraid to say.
Magic is designed to be performed for people- not that youtube videos aren't uncool, but that performing for real life is what you should be aiming for.

-Ben

 

[KeoSilver]

So things that watch youtube aren't people? Well who are they then?

 

[RDChopper]

i dont see why people need to put so much deep thought into "advancing the art". Just go do some friggin magic. on youtube, on facebook, on whatever the f**k you want.
The art doesnt need your forums to advance it.

Pretty much.

Lately the forums are slowly degrading to become just another facebook kinda thing, were we get online to talk with our buddies about the latest gossip in magic.

Thanks for bringing the topic up Mr.Mik

 

[ZachMueller]

Mikk,

I would have to agree to what you say to a degree. I think that it is very important that we all advance not only our tricks, or sleights or gimmicks, but also our persona. This is a great topic, and I feel that a lot could be learned from other people's opinions on the subject. Tricks are fine and dandy, and every magish loves a new technique, but tricks are tools when it comes down to it. You should be wanting people to remember YOU, not just the trick. Have them remember both, and you got it in the bag

Pretty much.

Lately the forums are slowly degrading to become just another facebook kinda thing, were we get online to talk with our buddies about the latest gossip in magic.

Thanks for bringing the topic up Mr.Mik

RDC,

I feel that your post did not contribute anything more to this thread than negativity.

You must remember that these forums are almost entirely user generated, and therefore it is your responsibility, and the responsibility of everyone else here, to up the ante and raise the bar for this forum. If you choose to excrete negative juices into the threads with negative and less than constructive posts, then you are not helping or advancing the forum, let alone contributing to the topics.

~Zach

 

[penguincdude]

I kind of agreed. I feel like I'm really starting to advance in my magic. I just started high school and usually would be terrible with showing others but then I realized that magic is meant to entertain the spectator, not to give the performer experience. Through performing for new people I even met some friends who perform magic also. One's dad is even a professional magician and he's letting me into the up-coming magic convention and backstage at the show for free. You shouldn't ask people if they'd allow you to see a trick because you're doing it for them not for you. Sure you should get permission but you need to realize that when you perform, it's a privilege for them not really for you.

 

[RDChopper]

RDC,

I feel that your post did not contribute anything more to this thread than negativity.

You must remember that these forums are almost entirely user generated, and therefore it is your responsibility, and the responsibility of everyone else here, to up the ante and raise the bar for this forum. If you choose to excrete negative juices into the threads with negative and less than constructive posts, then you are not helping or advancing the forum, let alone contributing to the topics.

~Zach

And I feel that my post wasnt being negative, it was being honest.

And I know that the forums are made of the users here.I KNOW THAT.

If you think that I havent tried to raise the bar around here, I suggest you keep those comments to yourself because you obviously dont know the reasons behind my posts.

And I agreed with foo(no need of double posting an opinion that was already made), I thanked Mr.Mikk for coming up with the thread and I expressed myself in a nice manner withouth need of being like "And the forums are effing Cr**p right now!"

So please dont say im being negative boy .

 

[Cedric Taylor]

Some time ago i was in a chat where a topic raised "How can we advance the art!?". My first impressions of it were quite astonishing, the idiotic answers that came from there blew my mind.

Then it hit me, the amount of people that actually get the question are performing and actually advancing the art.

My thought cycle:

Ive put a lot of thinking into this and every time i get to the same conclusion.

Why the f***k are we thinking about advancing the art if the amount of talent that is getting wasted by not teaching the art of performing, the art of characters and personas.

Magicians most of the time refer to the saying: "I am myself".

Who gives a c**p, if you take an effect that does not go with your persona what good will that do.

Let me elaborate, there are a lot of effects out there and you need to find the ones that suit you, suit you character. Yes you have to do that!
I for one cant perform eg. 5 Speed because my performing style and character is a Psychology-Spirit one. How the heck can i make it understandable to the people that what is going on with the whole thing is actually a psychological game.

I can´t! Because it has too much sleights and unnecessary points in it where it goes against my persona thus weakening it.

The amount of effort ive put into my persona is countless. Ive spent hours thinking what it should be and why it should be that. Im not making myself into somebody else, im just bringing out certain parts of me that strengthen my performance.

Its hard work, work that most of you dont do. You take a stock effect and use it as it is. I love Madisons books because he does not give you patter. The freedom to bond you and the effect.

There are so many performing styles, not just mentalism and magic but there are tons. Comic, Spirit, Classic, Street and so on. There are countless ones and you have to take them and mould them into you. Make them unique to you. And once youve done that you shall see the difference in the response you get and the reactions you get.

Nothing comes easy, but it will come easyer if you are willing to work on it.

Youtube isnt the place to be, its in the open. And we have to think about ourselves before we can think of everyone else.

If i could put a point on where it should go is to school where it will get the knowledge to teach young ones the necessity of persona and performing.

Gut.And.Perform!!!

It will only do you good!

Mikk

i think some are advancing i think some are still in the middle of finding themselves...even the pros...you can tell that some professional peformers just don't have it yet...once a performer find his/her niche, then they'll be fine...it a process it takes others longer than some...i have been doing magic for a while....i had to do some deep soul searching and only do magic that fits me and my persona.....thats it.....

 

[RDChopper]

i think some are advancing i think some are still in the middle of finding themselves...even the pros...you can tell that some professional peformers just don't have it yet...once a performer find his/her niche, then they'll be fine...it a process it takes others longer than some...i have been doing magic for a while....i had to do some deep soul searching and only do magic that fits me and my persona.....thats it.....

Cedric.... what did we talked about quoting two KM posts???

Its anoying man, please.

(also im keeping this thread on the top )

 

[Cedric Taylor]

sorry..........

 

[RDChopper]

good threads deserve to be on top.

 

[praetoritevong]

RDC,

I feel that your post did not contribute anything more to this thread than negativity.

You must remember that these forums are almost entirely user generated, and therefore it is your responsibility, and the responsibility of everyone else here, to up the ante and raise the bar for this forum. If you choose to excrete negative juices into the threads with negative and less than constructive posts, then you are not helping or advancing the forum, let alone contributing to the topics.

~Zach

Zach, with all due respect, RDC has done more than just about anyone else in raising the bar, and it's almost insulting to see a mod degrading that/being unaware of that fact.

I see where you came from and why you said it but please be aware of who people are when you make assertions like that.



Mikk - I definitely agree, about advancing the art, and about performing personas. Very few people seem to understand the concept of personas. And you're completely correct, too. The difference is much more understandable for us mentalists, to categorise the two of us broadly, but the line is finer for card magicians and the like - but it's still there.

Bottom line: If you perform effects that do not fit your persona, you are intentionally weakening your effects. You wouldn't intentionally perform a bad effect, so why would you intentionally weaken your effects in this way? Think about what you perform, in relation to who you are. Does it make sense?

 

[Luka]

here is the deal, we all know that there are some people on the forums that do magic just for the sake of turning tricks (pun intended). As a magician you should not just be doing tricks, you should be creating an experience. Get on the same level as your audience. If you want to advance the art of magic into a 21st century act, then you need to make it be one. Spectators do not give a damn about how good your slights are. When they are watching magic, they want to be entertained, so entertain them, don't turn tricks, create magic. Dont act like a side show at a vaudvill style Carnival, unless you are preforming at one. Act like a real person.

What is all this talk about Creating your character? What ever happened to being yourself while you preform. People dont want to see some half a** cartoon on stage. If you want to entertain then connect with you audience, trust me, people will connect more with regular person than they will with Fred Flintstone.

Who cares if someone really takes an effect and preforms it the same way on the DVD. That is what separates the men from the boys.

There is nothing wrong with putting magic on youtube (though i dont do it myself) If that is their way of getting their magic out there then so be it. if you dont like youtube magic then dont watch it. Just Go out and preform, who cares if its for a live audience or for digital audience. If your presentation is good and people are entertained then you have done your job.

Now lets stop with all of this BS and do what we all talk about. Lets create magic, lets have fun, entertain, and strive to do better. There is always room for improvement and that is what these forums should be about. how can we as entertainers give our audience more,

Magic is not about us, magic is not about the trick, magic is not the slight. Magic is an emotion that the audience feels.

The trick is the vehicle we use to generate the emotion of magic
The slight is what makes the trick possible
We as magicians puts everything together

Until you understand the difference between creating magic, and just doing tricks you can not call your self and magician. Because you are not, Magicians alter your emotions in an entertaining way, Turning tricks is something people do on a rainy day when the cable gos out.

so if you want to advance the art then you have to understand what the art really is. Dont ask what trick are you going to learn next, ask how can i make my routine better. How can i connect and generate that rare emotion we call magic.

 

[praetoritevong]

Nice post, Luka.

 

[Mr.MadMan]

here is the deal, we all know that there are some people on the forums that do magic just for the sake of turning tricks (pun intended). As a magician you should not just be doing tricks, you should be creating an experience. Get on the same level as your audience. If you want to advance the art of magic into a 21st century act, then you need to make it be one. Spectators do not give a damn about how good your slights are. When they are watching magic, they want to be entertained, so entertain them, don't turn tricks, create magic. Dont act like a side show at a vaudvill style Carnival, unless you are preforming at one. Act like a real person.

What is all this talk about Creating your character? What ever happened to being yourself while you preform. People dont want to see some half a** cartoon on stage. If you want to entertain then connect with you audience, trust me, people will connect more with regular person than they will with Fred Flintstone.

Who cares if someone really takes an effect and preforms it the same way on the DVD. That is what separates the men from the boys.

There is nothing wrong with putting magic on youtube (though i dont do it myself) If that is their way of getting their magic out there then so be it. if you dont like youtube magic then dont watch it. Just Go out and preform, who cares if its for a live audience or for digital audience. If your presentation is good and people are entertained then you have done your job.

Now lets stop with all of this BS and do what we all talk about. Lets create magic, lets have fun, entertain, and strive to do better. There is always room for improvement and that is what these forums should be about. how can we as entertainers give our audience more,

Magic is not about us, magic is not about the trick, magic is not the slight. Magic is an emotion that the audience feels.

The trick is the vehicle we use to generate the emotion of magic
The slight is what makes the trick possible
We as magicians puts everything together

Until you understand the difference between creating magic, and just doing tricks you can not call your self and magician. Because you are not, Magicians alter your emotions in an entertaining way, Turning tricks is something people do on a rainy day when the cable gos out.

so if you want to advance the art then you have to understand what the art really is. Dont ask what trick are you going to learn next, ask how can i make my routine better. How can i connect and generate that rare emotion we call magic.

*EDIT - Luka some of the stuff in this post does not affect you, i see that we are on the same page with the most of it. Character is important when performing, thats whats bringing everything together. If you are a usual blacksuit guy who is with a general talking way you wont be as striking as somebody like Max Maven, who has brought out his best sides and thus getting more credit for his work. *

Luka you have a point but what i said in my post was that we need to understand our personas and bring out the good in us. Im no real Psychologist but when i have to perform the effects i have to see how my character fits it. Its not that im making up a cartoon character, im making me. If i were to ask you what do the audience sees you as, you probably would not know because you havent put the effort in finding out how you are seen by the person(this is not directly at you, its just to prove a point).

Its still you who is performing you are just making the effect come out more if eg. being more sarcastic, more deep and so on. Im not driving to make everyone be somebody else, thats what stock effects on DVD´s do. But rather i want to get the point across that its not only the sleights, its the bond that lasts 5 minutes but stays with you forever that is also what i want to get across. And concentrating on your cards while performing is not the way to do it. Its how you put the pictures together in theyr mind is what stays. If they remember you as "The guy who did all the fancy stuff with the cards and one card went to his mouth" thats not right! They should not remember the cards at all or to a small extend depending on the effect. ( re-reading your post you get this chapter so sorry for re typing it)

Your character makes your performance more striking, if you use objects that go with your performance style and character you are really making the effect bigger in their eyes. You are more professional and you know what you are doing. Eg. i follow a guidance that I use a deck at home till its so bummed out no magician would use it and i would perform with it. Since i have a psychological character i dont need a new deck every time i perform. I just use the same one over and over till its so rubbish i have to throw it away. But that in the audiences mind makes me stronger, it shows i have performed alot and i know what im doing even if im doing the effect for the first time. Its the little things that make it all come together.


Mikk

 

[Mr.MadMan]

Thank you praetoritevong & RDChopper for the good feedback and help on keeping this ontop. Also thanks to the ones that have posted and to those that are about to post.


Mikk

 

[D ICE R]

I believe that the themes in this topic apply more for mentalist than for the magicians out there. Well not all magicians, the ones who have found their niche will appreciate this as well. Take someone like Steve Forte, they call themselves as card experts so for their character doing something like an ACR would not seem too impressive. He is perceived by the audience as someone with incredible skill (and rightfully so). That is not to say he can use some of the more 'magician' methods like a double lifts to achieve the desired effect. Moving more onto someone like Darwin Ortiz he still presents himself as a card technician but his pieces are more more magical but are still understood that he is talented as opposed the being 'magic'.

David Blaine however has a more sort of off-centre type of person who could maybe just do the things that he is saying that he is. He achieved this by many doing many things that shy patter, simple ideas. And finally Derren Brown, we all know how his TV show has made people believe that what he is doing is the real deal. But he understands what he can and what cannot do. Derren would not do a metal bending routine as it would hurt his imagine as a person with an amazing knowledge of psychology.

The initial point about magicians not appreciating this post as much as mentalist would is that a magician gets his audience to suspend their beliefs and accept what they are seeing. Whereas most mentalist want (the good ones achieve) their audience to believe that they are doing the 'real' thing. Joshua Quinn wrote in the into to Actual Proof from Para-Lies that the greatest things we can do is give the audience an idea that they can achieve (on a smaller scale) what we can. We do have methods like peeks forces and things of that nature but often mentalists will use the pseudo-method as a convincer resorting back to the actual method to bring the effect to a close.

I hate to sound like someone who is cynical however people are selfish. They may want to see your magic or mentalism but at the end of the day they will appreciate it more often than not for what it is, and not what it could have been. They will appreciate the entertainment value of the effects however they may even been interested in the method, but they will wonder how can I use that 'skill' in my day to day life. Taking a coin and vanishing it will be a nice trick and always will be however telling if someone is lying is a very powerful tool. The same can be said with being able to cheat at cards for someone who is an avid card player.

Focus on who you want to be not just as a performer but as a person as well. And do everything to achieve that, craft your effects to make your background plausible, like what Wayne did with the Gypsy Thread in the Thread DVD, he said it was a piece of sleight of hand but his character is one that understands things like sleight of hand and also psychological ploys.

 

[Luka]

I think I have a good way of explaining this. Please just read it and see if you can make the connection.

Lets take a look at Marilyn Manson. He preforms songs that fit him and his stage act. You do not see Manson singing any Jackson 5songs the same way the jackson 5 sang their songs. If he is going to do a cover his will change it and make it his own. Sweet Dreams is a perfect example of this.

Now as a magician you need to preform tricks that are you and fit your act. You cant go from being A mentalist, and having a mystery type sense to your act to something quirky like Daryl. Unless however you take one of Daryl's tricks and change it up to add more of a mystery type sense.

Your performance is what entertains the audience, and the illusions you do should complement your performance, and get the audience to understand who you are and how you entertain.

 

[KeoSilver]

Don't shoot me, I am a human like you.

When they are watching magic, they want to be entertained, so entertain them, don't turn tricks, create magic. Dont act like a side show at a vaudvill style Carnival, unless you are preforming at one. Act like a real person.

What is all this talk about Creating your character? What ever happened to being yourself while you preform. People dont want to see some half a** cartoon on stage. If you want to entertain then connect with you audience, trust me, people will connect more with regular person than they will with Fred Flintstone.

I have no idea where you are getting the notion that characters are clowns, I think the miss-understanding is of what a character is. It’s an exaggeration of your own personality. Like my character extends my love of mythology, superstition, supernatural, and theater. I am going to be a little over the top when I perform for people then others, but does that put me in the same league as a cartoon character? Excluding of course Sylvester the Jester.

Furthermore being you, a human can be pretty boring, Have you ever sat down and people watched? People are boring as heck. Spectators see humans everywhere, If you actually go up to a spectator and show them an effect and hook them in, your audience deserves something more and expects it as well because you just broke there mundane world. You have to keep them outside of their reality and suspend their belief by drawing them into your world. This can only really happen if you understand your persona and character.

There is nothing wrong with putting magic on youtube (though i dont do it myself) If that is their way of getting their magic out there then so be it. if you dont like youtube magic then dont watch it. Just Go out and preform, who cares if its for a live audience or for digital audience. If your presentation is good and people are entertained then you have done your job.

AMEN to that.

There is always room for improvement and that is what these forums should be about. How can we as entertainers give our audience more,

Build a persona or character? Once you actually have guidelines to what your persona, character, and style whatever you want to call it you will be able to more effectively use your creativity to develop effects that you will actually use.

The trick is the vehicle we use to generate the emotion of magic
The slight is what makes the trick possible
We as magicians puts everything together

Hmm

Until you understand the difference between creating magic, and just doing tricks you can not call your self and magician. Because you are not, Magicians alter your emotions in an entertaining way, Turning tricks is something people do on a rainy day when the cable gos out.

If you turn magic you are still considered a magician, I mean you are still entertaining people to pass time when the cable is out. That is what most magicians I have seen around do, its called street magic and being yourself and not a magician by your standards. Get what I am saying? Most modern street close up performers just turn tricks and lack any of the essentials that allows people to connect emotionally.

so if you want to advance the art then you have to understand what the art really is.

ARTTT!!!!??
Please explain to me what art means to you.

I think I have a good way of explaining this. Please just read it and see if you can make the connection.
Lets take a look at Marilyn Manson. He preforms songs that fit him and his stage act. You do not see Manson singing any Jackson 5songs the same way the jackson 5 sang their songs. If he is going to do a cover his will change it and make it his own. Sweet Dreams is a perfect example of this.

Agreed, furthermore Manson has a Persona/character, which helps him make songs his own. That is why magicians need one.