I don't completely understand it...

Sep 22, 2007
42
0
I never completley understood why people hate Ellusonist so much. I know that many products are a lot less than satisfactory, such as "Axis" and "Bullet", and that sometimes there teaching methods are horrible but does that really justify a reason to hate them?

I always believed that when you buy a product from a magic site or store you were paying for the reactions you get from your audience rather than method itself. Take "Control" for example. You payed $29.99 to learn how to stop and control your pulse. Personally I thought there would have been some setup method but I bet many of you, like I did, thought "holy crap its so simple!" after you watched how to do it. Now can you honestly say that the method for "Control" is work 30$? No its not, but the reactions its gets from your audience is ABSOLUTLY worth 30$!

Same goes for Ellusionist. Ill use "Revolution" as and example. For those of you who purchased it, you propbably hate the method and think it is impractical. So did I. I thought it was the worst 20$ I have ever spent. I have always believed in making the best out of a situation. So a couple days later I turned on some music and started thinkng of ways that would utilize the action that causes "Revolution" to happen. After thinking for a while I came up with a couple of ideas that used the "action" quite well. Now that does not excuse Ellusionist for selling a product that makes your hand look distorted while doing it. I can see where many people dislike Ellusonist, I really can.

This is what I think every magician should do when presented with bad teaching or horrible methods...Of course you can keep rewinding a video until you get the slieight you cant get down, that is perfectly ok but, why not think creativley and come with your own way of doing an effect or executing a sleight. Simply by changing one sleight for another you can turn a horrible product you bought to a practical and audience friendly magic effect, may not work for many effects but im sure you get my point.

We all have to see places like Theory11, Ellusonist, and Penguin Magic for what they are, a Buisness. Like every buisness sometimes they have homerun products, like theory11's "Dangerous" or Ellusionist's "Guerilla Guide to Loops" and sometimes they just plain strike out when they put out a product that makes you scratch your head and say "what the F&*k were they think?". If you dont like there products thats fine, move on and buy from somewhere else. But dont go on rampages saying how much you hate something or someone becuase at the end, I believe, it wont matter to anyone except for your own self gratification. Ellusionist, Theory11 , Penguin Magic, and another magic reatilers are all here do one thing, which is help inspire and better the art of magic.
 
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Sorry that I didn't read everything because that is one big wall of text with no paragraphs! :p So I am just going to go with:

I dont completely understand it.... I never completley understood why people hate Ellusonist so much.

I think we should be more of a community even if we are split up all over the place at different forums and shops! - No where is better than anywhere else - Which is why I do not 'hate' anyone or any other community. I just happened to be here at Theory11 by choice.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
why should I be ok with paying 20 dollars to fix an essentially broken product? Just a thought.

What broken product? Are you talking about the Tarantula? Because that's not an E exclusive item. It's being sold literally at every magic shop on or offline. The fact that it had problems wasn't there fault to begin with. That was the manufacturers fault.

I do agree that they do sometimes have "meh" type products but as of the past year or so they've actually had a pretty good deal of stuff that is great. Specially the new Wayne Houchin thing coming out that looks like it'll be better than the other stuff he released before.
 
Same goes for Ellusionist. Ill use "Revolution" as and example. For those of you who purchased it, you probably hate the method and think it is impractical. So did I. I thought it was the worst 20$ I have ever spent. I have always believed in making the best out of a situation. So a couple days later I turned on some music and started thinking of ways that would utilize the action that causes "Revolution" to happen. After thinking for a while I came up with a couple of ideas that used the "action" quite well. Now that does not excuse Ellusionist for selling a product that makes your hand look distorted while doing it. I can see where many people dislike Ellusionist, I really can.


Possibly I'm missing something here but....?

What's impractical about the method? How can putting a coin on your hand and the coin vanishing be impractical. Every action is justified if you think about it. This kind of dependance on 'method' really irritates me, and I'll illustrate why right now:

I bought Revolution years ago, blown away by the demo video (as every single person who bought it was) and when I watched it I felt deflated. Why? Well..I couldn't comprehend how the method would fool anyone and I thought I'd wasted my money. (This was in my first few months into magic and I fell into the same trap that all fledgling magicians do, namely believing that the methods for tricks must be complicated and awe-inspiring and then being pissed when they find out that most things are accomplished through the heavy use of cling-film and sticky tape) But hey-ho, I tried it out, practiced it a bit and found it pretty fun to perform; simple, quick, completely dumbfounding as to where the hell that sodding coin goes.

Anyway, skip a few years and I was around a friends house for dinner and he started talking to me about magic. I never tell anyone where I get anything from as I'm the selfish sort of person who wants to keep this magic stuff all to myself. Turns out he'd sneaked onto my computer one night at work and found E's bookmark in my Safari browser and made a note of the address. He then goes home, mooches around the site a bit and settles on Revolution as a good way to see of he likes this magic lark I'm always banging on about.

Anyway so he comes clean and I ask him if he bought anything and he says yeah, this dumb coin trick that cost him nearly £30, one that when he watched it he ended up with his head in his hands in despair as it was so obvious and impossible to do. I had a suspicion which thing he was talking about and so I dug a coin out of my pocket, put it on the back of my hand, lowered my hand as I asked him "Is this the one you bought?" and proceeded to perform Revolution. The look on his face was priceless. Expletives were shouted and then a discussion of magic method vs magic performance ensued.

He said he'd been practicing it for a few days after he got it and it had just frustrated him so much that he'd dumped it into a drawer and forgotten about it. I asked him why and he said that,

a) he couldn't get it to look like the video and

b) he couldn't see how anyone would be fooled by it anyway.

I pointed out that he'd been fooled enough by it to buy it and he had no answer for that. He then made mention that he'd suspected that it only worked shot dead on with a camera but that I'd just proved that to be wrong. I taught him how to do it properly. He was very happy but...ha...decided that the amount of time it takes to practice a trick to get it smooth and second nature was just too much for him.

But my point was made to him, and hopefully here too:


Method means nothing.


As for the quoted post...the 'action' is invisible and completely justified. Take a coin, put it on the back of your hand, lower your hand so everyone can see 'everything' and you can't be accused of jiggery pokery, rub the coin with your fingers and it vanishes. Clean, simple, easy, brilliant.


I'd mention MindBender here but I fear I'd get slammed once again for mentioning how good that trick is with the right presentation...hahaha...so...ahem, i'll leave that well alone.



Rabid
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Some people dislike Ellusionist because they feel it is misrepresenting itself as a magical source of knowledge. Ellusionist has made a place for itself at the forefront of popular magic and has as a result a position as one of the most popular places to start magic. Some however see Ellusionist as a weak starting point in relation to where many magicians feel students should start, namely places such as Card College and Royal Road, or Mark Wilson's Complete Course, or Tarbell's Course.

So many brilliant places to begin, and Ellusionist offers How to Do Street Magic, which teaches tricks, but not how to be a magician. Or Crash Course, which defies the very nature of magic - learning magic cannot be a crash course, but is a journey. There are no shortcuts in magic, and many do feel that Ellusionist is in some ways representative and indeed encouraging of some of the pitfalls of the modern magician.

When I first started in magic, I bought a bunch of Ellusionist DVDs. I currently use perhaps one, maybe two, occasionally. Overall, though it did start my interest in magic, it was far from a good start, and I find, looking back, that I did not progress as quickly as I could've with something like Card College. My magic did not progress until six months down the track, when I started to look at other material; and it did not fast forward until I found guys like Vernon.

Although it is true that Ellusionist has good effects, good effects are simply not what the beginning magician needs. It is also true that though we can play around with effects, this is not what the beginning magician knows how to do - just like the person in Rabid's story who did not know how to appreciate Revolution. Vernon, Tarbell, they teach an attitude and a respect for magic. They teach you about magic, not about tricks.

Some people simply don't like Brad Christian. I can't say I blame them, after his stunt with the Classic Pass, which is one thing I do personally strongly disagree with.

These are, in my opinion, some of the more reasonable reasons people dislike Ellusionist. Note - dislike, not hate.
 
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Nov 7, 2008
295
0
Hofstra Univ.
I'm not speaking of any particular effect or any particular seller. And I completely agree with the sort of "makes lemonade when given lemons." But i think at its simplest form I am a customer and I feel shafted I have every right to feel that way. Weather I'm right or wrong in my reasons are debatable.
 
May 3, 2008
1,146
4
Hong Kong
I used to be one of those people.
I didnt really like Ellusionist that much because they hype up everything like it was the coming of god. and when you got it, you are just like... "oh...i waited for this?"
Now Im okay with it.
The reasons I have found for this sorta thing is:
1. They seem to hype up things too much when they arent worth the hype.
2. Over priced for a single trick.
3. Not the most practical of tricks. Refer to number 1.
4. Influence from other people. Noobs who think that its cool to hate E. This sort of happened with Blaine as well.
5. Seemed like the beginner website. Not much products and most are pretty novice things.
6. Brad Christian. He looks a bit "poofy" if you know what I mean... I guess some are againts that.
 
So many brilliant places to begin, and Ellusionist offers How to Do Street Magic, which teaches tricks, but not how to be a magician. Or Crash Course, which defies the very nature of magic - learning magic cannot be a crash course, but is a journey.

This is not really true though, is it? No DVD selling magic tricks teaches you how to be a magician, but E's DVD's and some of T-11's at least give you thought to go along with your visuals.


There are no shortcuts in magic, and many do feel that Ellusionist is in some ways representative and indeed encouraging of some of the pitfalls of the modern magician.

And what you've said can be leveled at this place also. That's really the point of the forums on the sites, that's where the beginner learns about the history of magic and all the other avenues available for travel and where to find them.

That's how it was for me. I bought HTDSM, signed up to the forums and now I've read and viewed so much magic sometimes I wish I could get it out of my head. I met many great people with many differing styles of magic and presentation and they all gave me different things to hunt down. They also all shared some advice (RR & Card college to name a few) so that I was able to make a judgement call on buying those things...why, if so many magicians say it's good, must be huh?


Anyway, I'm working and shouldn't be tippy tapping on here.


Laters


Rabid
 
I used to be one of those people.
I didnt really like Ellusionist that much because they hype up everything like it was the coming of god. and when you got it, you are just like... "oh...i waited for this?"
Now Im okay with it.
The reasons I have found for this sorta thing is:
1. They seem to hype up things too much when they arent worth the hype.
2. Over priced for a single trick.
3. Not the most practical of tricks. Refer to number 1.
4. Influence from other people. Noobs who think that its cool to hate E. This sort of happened with Blaine as well.
5. Seemed like the beginner website. Not much products and most are pretty novice things.
6. Brad Christian. He looks a bit "poofy" if you know what I mean... I guess some are againts that.



I'll get my coat.
 
Sep 9, 2007
512
0
I think praetoritevong makes some great points, but at the same time, I don't think everyone is as logical and methodical as he is.

Bottom line, people like to feel passionate about something. They like to be polarized. They like to love things and hate things. It's romantic to be a part of a group that shares a vision and purpose. The problem is that most people don't understand that someone doesn't always have to lose for someone else to win.

I will say that T11 has a lot of mature people that get this. But judging by people I've seen at other forums or even in real life, there's a knee-jerk reaction to E that even they themselves can't explain. And I just did.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
phrozunsun: Thank you, and yes I do believe you're right. There is a distinction of course between disliking and hating, and much of the hate is indeed irrational, I do agree, an inexplicable knee-jerk, as you said. It is at least interesting to propose some legitimate reasons why as well, though.

This is not really true though, is it? No DVD selling magic tricks teaches you how to be a magician, but E's DVD's and some of T-11's at least give you thought to go along with your visuals.

I do feel that certain products do teach you to be a magician, though. Even looking at Joshua Jay's new book, Magic: The Complete Course, he places as much emphasis on magic, as he does the effect. Tarbell, to name another. I can't quote DVDs off the top of my head, but I do feel that it is particularly lacking of many, not all, but many, of E's DVDs (Kard Klub is a notable exception for me). I absolutely do feel however that some products teach you about magic, and how to be a magician, rather than how to simply do tricks.

Specifically onto CC, I feel that Crash Course, by supposedly being exactly that, a crash course, puts students in the wrong frame of mind to learn magic. I believe that thinking of magic in that way makes it very easy to slip into magical mediocrity; simply put, you can tell who's performing a puzzle, and who's performing magic, and one big factor in this I feel is approach and mentality.

And what you've said can be leveled at this place also. That's really the point of the forums on the sites, that's where the beginner learns about the history of magic and all the other avenues available for travel and where to find them.

That's how it was for me. I bought HTDSM, signed up to the forums and now I've read and viewed so much magic sometimes I wish I could get it out of my head. I met many great people with many differing styles of magic and presentation and they all gave me different things to hunt down. They also all shared some advice (RR & Card college to name a few) so that I was able to make a judgement call on buying those things...why, if so many magicians say it's good, must be huh?


Anyway, I'm working and shouldn't be tippy tapping on here.


Laters


Rabid

Quite simply, yes it can be levelled at T11. However, I never have gotten into T11 products much, so I can't really speak for them. In reality though, I think that lessons are much more accessible if they were taught straight from the product - after all, that's why we buy them - than from an anonymous someone telling you what to do. Yes, it is what forums are for; but I expect more from the product, s'all. Obviously, even simply from you as an example, it is not impossible to learn about magic this way. However, I believe it could be easier.

As far as what is popular... No, of course not necessarily. But, considering how many do recommend these specific products, how long they've lasted, and how many professionals and masters have grown off these and recommend these, I'd say that there's a good reason for it.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Specifically onto CC, I feel that Crash Course, by supposedly being exactly that, a crash course, puts students in the wrong frame of mind to learn magic. I believe that thinking of magic in that way makes it very easy to slip into magical mediocrity; simply put, you can tell who's performing a puzzle, and who's performing magic, and one big factor in this I feel is approach and mentality.

Consider that magic has been advertising learning fast for a century or so.

Consider also that the novice wants to see results quickly. It motivates them to continue. I personally am of the school of thought that a lot of conventional wisdom about learning new skills is bull****. Less is more very often.

You mention how fast you could have progressed with Card College. Let's leave aside the fact that I have never purchased Card College, nor do I ever intend to. I actually disagree with the idea that a beginner should get this series. It presents the typical dilemma of too much information. Sure, you could take the conventional method of learning it in perfect order, chapter by chapter by chapter. But that's tedious, and learning isn't supposed to be tedious.

I learned to be a better performer by actually, you know, performing. Trial by fire. I liken it to my brother who dramatically enhanced his ability to converse in Spanish by living in Mexico for 6 months.

We all love to recommend that Tarbell Course immediately, but there's two things most of us forget.

1. Holy **** is that a lot of information to take in at once!

2. Harlan Tarbell originally made it a correspondence course. You had plenty of time to handle one lesson before the next one showed up, creating a consistent pattern of effort, learning, and pay-off.
 
As far as what is popular... No, of course not necessarily. But, considering how many do recommend these specific products, how long they've lasted, and how many professionals and masters have grown off these and recommend these, I'd say that there's a good reason for it.

I wasn't suggesting that there wasn't a good reason, I was saying there was. Apologies, I typed that other post fast and i can see how confusion would result from the way I worded that end bit.

I'm off to walk my husky before someone notices my signature and the blood starts to fly.


Laters dude.


Rabid
 
Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
I second Steerpike's post. i purchased Card college and 13 steps a few months ago. And i can honestly say to start out again from scratch in an entirely different area in magic is very tedious. I was used to learning from trial and error.
 
I never completley understood why people hate Ellusonist so much. I know that many products are a lot less than satisfactory, such as "Axis" and "Bullet", and that sometimes there teaching methods are horrible but does that really justify a reason to hate them?

I always believed that when you buy a product from a magic site or store you were paying for the reactions you get from your audience rather than method itself. Take "Control" for example. You payed $29.99 to learn how to stop and control your pulse. Personally I thought there would have been some setup method but I bet many of you, like I did, thought "holy crap its so simple!" after you watched how to do it. Now can you honestly say that the method for "Control" is work 30$? No its not, but the reactions its gets from your audience is ABSOLUTLY worth 30$!

Same goes for Ellusionist. Ill use "Revolution" as and example. For those of you who purchased it, you propbably hate the method and think it is impractical. So did I. I thought it was the worst 20$ I have ever spent. I have always believed in making the best out of a situation. So a couple days later I turned on some music and started thinkng of ways that would utilize the action that causes "Revolution" to happen. After thinking for a while I came up with a couple of ideas that used the "action" quite well. Now that does not excuse Ellusionist for selling a product that makes your hand look distorted while doing it. I can see where many people dislike Ellusonist, I really can.

This is what I think every magician should do when presented with bad teaching or horrible methods...Of course you can keep rewinding a video until you get the slieight you cant get down, that is perfectly ok but, why not think creativley and come with your own way of doing an effect or executing a sleight. Simply by changing one sleight for another you can turn a horrible product you bought to a practical and audience friendly magic effect, may not work for many effects but im sure you get my point.

We all have to see places like Theory11, Ellusonist, and Penguin Magic for what they are, a Buisness. Like every buisness sometimes they have homerun products, like theory11's "Dangerous" or Ellusionist's "Guerilla Guide to Loops" and sometimes they just plain strike out when they put out a product that makes you scratch your head and say "what the F&*k were they think?". If you dont like there products thats fine, move on and buy from somewhere else. But dont go on rampages saying how much you hate something or someone becuase at the end, I believe, it wont matter to anyone except for your own self gratification. Ellusionist, Theory11 , Penguin Magic, and another magic reatilers are all here do one thing, which is help inspire and better the art of magic.
jealousy....every effect isn't gonna go over well with everyone, thats a facts....i do think some of the stuff that E has put out, i have effects that are far superior to that...but hey it happens....i live with it..but for the most part people are jealous and in some cases...pissed....
 
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