I don't know a proper thread title for this issue.

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
So I perform mentalism more than anything else but I'm a magician at heart. However, when I'm shopping, I see some magic I would love to have, but refrain from it so I won't stray from mentalism because I hate mixing the two a lot. I'm not saying I never mix them. Derren Brown talks about the mixture of the two fields and I agree with him but I just don't want people to see a mentalism effect and just be like, it's just another magic trick, which in reality it is. I don't know that last statement is going to sit with you guys, but to me if subterfuge is involved in a situation that isn't a gambling demonstration, it is essentially magic. I just want to perform things that really settle with a spectator, and that's why I prefer mentalism. So how do I perform the two? Or do I just pick one and settle?
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,182
118
28
Houston, TX
This is Mentalism by Rich Ferguson

Alot of Jay Sankeys Mentalism

I know Sankey's stuff is AWESOME. I can't speak much for Rich, because I do not own that DVD but I have heard MANY good things.

I think mentalism, and magic can be combined to be a VERY powerful thing... Ex. Paperclipped by Jay Sankey
 

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
I have the Rich Ferguson dvd. None of that is magic. It's all mentalism. I like some of Jay's material..but not a lot. And This Is Mentalism is insane. I love that dvd. I'm not saying I'm starting out in mentalism. Quite the opposite. I've gotten to the point you hear about with mentalists not performing magic.. The thing is I want to. But there's some kind of mental barrier.
 
Jan 10, 2008
294
2
J. Slade, I can tell you from experience that you don't have to choose between the two.

Think about it this way: Mentalism IS Magic. Mentalism is a branch of magic that exploits the belief human beings have in the possibility of 'mental power'. It still is magic and I feel what you are talking about is the typical 'magician mentality'. There are a few mentalists that believe playing cards should be avoided because 'playing cards are a magic prop'... *Cough Cough* Theo Annemann, Kreskin, Dunniger... Don't believe the propaganda that mentalists with the 'magician mentality' put out there.

I've been a serious student of magic (cards and mentalism are my forte) for around 10 years now. I can tell you that mentalism has helped me out greatly. It has not only helped me with effects, but being able to let me determine a good move from a bad move, and also evolve my handlings of some of the effects that I perform. I believe one of the reasons why mentalism hits as hard for people as it does is because it looks real. There is no over handling involved (most of the time) and everything is not justified or over proven (just extremely casual, but most importantly natural).

I do a ton of card tricks as mental effects, stuff that you would not believe. For example: Ed Marlo's Traveling Card. I took a conventional card effect and made it into a fun demonstration of 'mental power' apparently causing cards to travel from packet to packet by use of my mind and the spectator's mind and perception. I accomplish this though scripting, presentation, and premise.

I do not understand the need to choose between the two, to me if you skip over your study of mentalism simply because you will never perform mentalism; then you as a performer are doing yourself a great dis-service, because there are some great concepts out there that could be used in the performance of conventional magic to a great extent.

J. Slade, if you want to do both magic and mentalism, go right ahead. Now how do you combine the two successfully? If you are a serious student, then time, study, and perseverance will show you how in due time. Keep the faith.

David
 
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Luis Vega

Elite Member
Mar 19, 2008
1,802
210
35
Leon, Guanajuato Mexico
luisvega.com.mx
I have a show coming up next week.."The Vega Experience" and a half of the show is sleight of hand and the other half is mentalism...I don´t know anything about mixing both...but as soon as I find out...I´ll be making a thread!!
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
2
There is nothing wrong with exploring magic at the same time. If you see an effect you like, get it! sometimes you might learn a principle that can be applied to mentalism. You can always separate the two during performance. Many mentalists were well known, privately, as excellent card magicians. Never the less, when performing in a profsesional venue, they would generally downplay their card skills in order to sell their effects as Mental and not physical prowess.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
13
62
Northampton, MA - USA
So I perform mentalism more than anything else but I'm a magician at heart. However, when I'm shopping, I see some magic I would love to have, but refrain from it so I won't stray from mentalism because I hate mixing the two a lot. I'm not saying I never mix them. Derren Brown talks about the mixture of the two fields and I agree with him but I just don't want people to see a mentalism effect and just be like, it's just another magic trick, which in reality it is. I don't know that last statement is going to sit with you guys, but to me if subterfuge is involved in a situation that isn't a gambling demonstration, it is essentially magic. I just want to perform things that really settle with a spectator, and that's why I prefer mentalism. So how do I perform the two? Or do I just pick one and settle?

Stop trying to be a "Mentalist" unless your heart is really into it; mentalism is an area that DEMANDS focus and discipline and contrary to current trends, is not about fooling people (but then, none of magic is, really).

Yes, there are ways of doing both. I'd suggest you check around of a copy of the Larsen Book on Magic & Mentalism if you want to get some ideas (quite dated, a bit expensive but worth every single penny). The thing is, you can't do an Ambiteous Card routine under the heading of PK work or Teleportation (as the good Spiritualists would claim... maybe.. .if they were really good at it.. perhaps...) Nor should you follow said CARD TRICK with something as potent as 4th Demensional Telepathy.

The Other Important Thing to Remember is that one hell of a lot of the CRAP out there these days that calls itself "Mentalism" AIN'T! At best, it's Bizzare Magick and that's really pushing it. Then too, as I said in my most recent article at VISIONS, a lot of it is just a High School Physics experiment (Granted, given how poor the pronounciation and language skills of some of these guys, it's hard to believe they graduated High School) that's been packaged up and pitched to our greedy little minds to be "more" (as in "the beat all miraculous gizzz thang")

The Bottom Line (at least in my world) is PICK ONE!

A wise man once pointed out that we can't serve two masters while others since have pointed out how one can't be a "master of all trades" without being a screw-up and half-wit in each demonstration of said claim... you simply can't "master" more than ONE THING AT A TIME regardless of what you do and I really don't care who wants to scream about my not being in vogue with current multitasking attitudes.

I've loved magic since I was a kid but I invest my first couple of decades learning all I could about grand illusions and building big stage shows... I think I did fairly well there (though I never managed to break into the "big time" as they say) BUT... and though there was roughly 6-8 years of "experimenting" with Mentalism, when I finally decided to go with it full time, I stopped pushing to do traditional magic show dates and started pushing the Mystery Dinner Shows I still do as well as some stage styled Mentalism programs...

The great thing about mentalism is that you can build a complete two hour show by going to the local Office Max on your way to the gig and basically doing nothing other than what you find in Corinda, Fulves and Annemann. With Magic you might have to hit a couple of hardware & fabric shops first, do a good deal of sewing & building, etc. BOTH require a lot of practice and that's where magic is "easier" in that there's a lot you can do in way of practicing magic vs. how frustrating things can get with Mentalism. It is here however that we find out why it is best that you make a choice... if you keep trying to do both, you will not do either of them justice. So weigh things such as your age, environment, acting ability, laziness factors (we're all guilty, so don't worry) and decide which one fits you best... not which one you personally prefer, mind you. But which one best fits you and how you see yourself as an entertainer... BIG DIFFERENCE!

Remember what I said about those few years of experimenting?

I did my first full evening Mentalism gig in 1982 I think it was... I was all of 22-23 years old and the audience reaction scared the ever living hell out of me... I was not yet mature enough or seasoned in life enough to deal with folks wanting me to be their guru. This is one reason why I do not encourage anyone under 30 years of age to move into Mentalism (thought many others do... but look who says this and what products they sale or hype over that that green place... snake oil salesmen always tell the suckers/patrons what they want to hear. . . think about that.)

After that weekend I ran back to my stage shows and offered only small feature bits in which Mental Magic (a.k.a. Mentalism Lite) was done... things like Don Wayne's Dream Vision, Mental Epic, etc. vs. the "hands free" way I do things now (depending on the show I'm doing, I rarely need to carry more than a small bag with some cards & pencils... maybe a Legal Pad or two with some Sharpies if it's a larger room. . . beats the heck out of a big truck).

I was into my early 40s before I started doing "full-time" Mentalism (with some Bizarre accents) and it would be another 4-6 years before I learned how to reduce things down in a way that was far more "pure" mentalism vs. Psychic themed magic tricks...

I hope you can see my point here... don't worry about the Mentalism for now and just enjoy doing magic for the sake of amusement. BUT, if you are going to go with Mentalism, fasten your seat-belts and stop listening to magicians trying to tell you how to do it... you wouldn't ask a plumber how to frame out a house, would you?
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
13
62
Northampton, MA - USA
I have a show coming up next week.."The Vega Experience" and a half of the show is sleight of hand and the other half is mentalism...I don´t know anything about mixing both...but as soon as I find out...I´ll be making a thread!!

Glad I caught this (such thinking is rare) But THIS is exactly how the old timers did it... you segregate the two. Some did an early evening "Magic Show" with a one hour intermission so the kiddies could be put to bed, then came the "Grown Up" program composed of Mind Reading, Hypnosis, etc.
 

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
Stop trying to be a "Mentalist" unless your heart is really into it; mentalism is an area that DEMANDS focus and discipline and contrary to current trends, is not about fooling people (but then, none of magic is, really).

Yes, there are ways of doing both. I'd suggest you check around of a copy of the Larsen Book on Magic & Mentalism if you want to get some ideas (quite dated, a bit expensive but worth every single penny). The thing is, you can't do an Ambiteous Card routine under the heading of PK work or Teleportation (as the good Spiritualists would claim... maybe.. .if they were really good at it.. perhaps...) Nor should you follow said CARD TRICK with something as potent as 4th Demensional Telepathy.

The Other Important Thing to Remember is that one hell of a lot of the CRAP out there these days that calls itself "Mentalism" AIN'T! At best, it's Bizzare Magick and that's really pushing it. Then too, as I said in my most recent article at VISIONS, a lot of it is just a High School Physics experiment (Granted, given how poor the pronounciation and language skills of some of these guys, it's hard to believe they graduated High School) that's been packaged up and pitched to our greedy little minds to be "more" (as in "the beat all miraculous gizzz thang")

The Bottom Line (at least in my world) is PICK ONE!

A wise man once pointed out that we can't serve two masters while others since have pointed out how one can't be a "master of all trades" without being a screw-up and half-wit in each demonstration of said claim... you simply can't "master" more than ONE THING AT A TIME regardless of what you do and I really don't care who wants to scream about my not being in vogue with current multitasking attitudes.

I've loved magic since I was a kid but I invest my first couple of decades learning all I could about grand illusions and building big stage shows... I think I did fairly well there (though I never managed to break into the "big time" as they say) BUT... and though there was roughly 6-8 years of "experimenting" with Mentalism, when I finally decided to go with it full time, I stopped pushing to do traditional magic show dates and started pushing the Mystery Dinner Shows I still do as well as some stage styled Mentalism programs...

The great thing about mentalism is that you can build a complete two hour show by going to the local Office Max on your way to the gig and basically doing nothing other than what you find in Corinda, Fulves and Annemann. With Magic you might have to hit a couple of hardware & fabric shops first, do a good deal of sewing & building, etc. BOTH require a lot of practice and that's where magic is "easier" in that there's a lot you can do in way of practicing magic vs. how frustrating things can get with Mentalism. It is here however that we find out why it is best that you make a choice... if you keep trying to do both, you will not do either of them justice. So weigh things such as your age, environment, acting ability, laziness factors (we're all guilty, so don't worry) and decide which one fits you best... not which one you personally prefer, mind you. But which one best fits you and how you see yourself as an entertainer... BIG DIFFERENCE!

Remember what I said about those few years of experimenting?

I did my first full evening Mentalism gig in 1982 I think it was... I was all of 22-23 years old and the audience reaction scared the ever living hell out of me... I was not yet mature enough or seasoned in life enough to deal with folks wanting me to be their guru. This is one reason why I do not encourage anyone under 30 years of age to move into Mentalism (thought many others do... but look who says this and what products they sale or hype over that that green place... snake oil salesmen always tell the suckers/patrons what they want to hear. . . think about that.)

After that weekend I ran back to my stage shows and offered only small feature bits in which Mental Magic (a.k.a. Mentalism Lite) was done... things like Don Wayne's Dream Vision, Mental Epic, etc. vs. the "hands free" way I do things now (depending on the show I'm doing, I rarely need to carry more than a small bag with some cards & pencils... maybe a Legal Pad or two with some Sharpies if it's a larger room. . . beats the heck out of a big truck).

I was into my early 40s before I started doing "full-time" Mentalism (with some Bizarre accents) and it would be another 4-6 years before I learned how to reduce things down in a way that was far more "pure" mentalism vs. Psychic themed magic tricks...

I hope you can see my point here... don't worry about the Mentalism for now and just enjoy doing magic for the sake of amusement. BUT, if you are going to go with Mentalism, fasten your seat-belts and stop listening to magicians trying to tell you how to do it... you wouldn't ask a plumber how to frame out a house, would you?

Well I'm gonna stick with mentalism then because I enjoy it the most. For the sake of amusement? What an insult. I just like them both. I understand your age theory and have always thought the same thing but age is just a number. It's not going to stop me from doing what I enjoy the most.
 
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