Is the internet ruining Magic?

Jan 5, 2009
8
0
I will probably make some enemies by this post, but I could care less really. I have been away from magic for a while and actually have not performed in a long while. Back into magic now, I am shocked at the impact the internet has had on our wonderful craft. Of course there are some good things, such as Theory 11 :)D) and the availability of magic stores, but I have never seen so many unprincipled people in my life revealing everything! My god, just by watching youtube you can learn the hindu shuffle, false cuts, double-lifts, and about everything else. The only bright side is these people will never be very good because of their lack of foundation. CARD COLLEGE! Anyways, I'm sure it's not just me who feels this way. I have to restrain myself from commenting these videos because as we all know arguing on the internet is kinda like the Special Olympics....I won't finish that as it's not very nice :p Thanks for listening to my rant.
 
Jul 14, 2008
936
0
I strongly agreed with you, these people in youtube have no respect for the creators and their magic. It seems that the time and the society are changing in a good and a bad way. The good thing is that people put their efforts and their dedication towards magic. The only bad way is when people reveal on the Internet for no reason, except they feel like it. It's just wrong.
 

Bizzaro

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2007
464
10
Vegas
www.smappdooda.com
Problem is for each video exposing there are two people involved. Those who encourage and those who discourage. Sadly, the former outweighs the latter.

Once that is reversed, maybe it will recede a bit.

Has anyone considered contacting YT and places like it and talked to someone in a decision making process about getting this type of stuff removed more frequently? It is damaging to the professional careers of others, therefore should be respected as such.
 
Jan 5, 2009
8
0
Bizarro, I think this may be a good idea. I think it is going to take someone who is maybe better known than I (which is not at all, lol) They may be able to demonstrate the injury to their livelihood.
I don't think of myself as "old-school", but I don't think being edgy and cutting-edge also means being unprincipled and having no respect for the work past magicians have put into our craft. There are people out there like Dan Hauss who are "edgy" and also very respectful and protective of his craft.
 
Has anyone considered contacting YT and places like it and talked to someone in a decision making process about getting this type of stuff removed more frequently? It is damaging to the professional careers of others, therefore should be respected as such.

Here's the thing... it's NOT damaging to magicians out there making their living from performing! At least not those that are any good. There are still thousands of pros out there performing day in and day out, booking gigs and doing shows. Whether Youtube exists or not, I don't think that would change.

Exposure has never hurt me before, and I don't anticipate it ever will. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. *I* offer something that can't be exposed, and that's me. People don't pay me good money to perform at their event because I do some cool tricks, they hire me because I'm me! My personality, my ability to entertain an audience...stuff that can't be exposed nor taken from me.

Those that worry about youtube will continue to do so, and use that as an excuse and a crutch why their magic and their "career" (if you can call it that) isn't where they feel it should. There are others out there that pay no attention to it, and it has never affected them at all.

Best.
Steve
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Hmm. I'm gonna be a little unhelpful for a second, and ask you this:

What do you consider as "ruined"? Not, what is being ruined, or what is ruining magic - but when do we consider magic "ruined", how do we measure the process by which magic is being progressively "ruined" and the extent of this?

The reason I ask this is simply because I feel magic is stronger than that, it's deeper than exposure. Exposure is doubt, no qualms there, but I don't think it will actually bring magic to the point of "ruin".
 
Oct 24, 2007
314
0
Bizarro, I think this may be a good idea. I think it is going to take someone who is maybe better known than I (which is not at all, lol) They may be able to demonstrate the injury to their livelihood.
I don't think of myself as "old-school", but I don't think being edgy and cutting-edge also means being unprincipled and having no respect for the work past magicians have put into our craft. There are people out there like Dan Hauss who are "edgy" and also very respectful and protective of his craft.

Although contacting YouTube may sound like a good idea, in principle it will never work. Why? Because the people posting the videos are in no way breaking any copyright laws whatsoever.

Now, know that I am definitely NOT condoning such horrible behavior as exposing magic. I'm just saying, contacting YouTube will not work. I know, because I've tried.

So, I would like to suggest a way to fix this. You see, I went around to several exposure videos to test a thought I had. I realized, almost 98% of the people performing in the videos could be classified as two things. One, as being very young (under the age of 16 usually), and two, as being "babies" in magic. As I thought more on this, I realized why.

These people have no mentors, not helpers or anyone to guide them in what is right. If you have a child and do not tell them not to stick a screw driver in an electrical socket, then they will do it without knowing it is bad. But, if you tell the child, if you guide them and let them know it is bad, and the consequences of their actions, THEN they do not stick the screw driver in the socket.

Hopefully you understand my analogy. They don't know they are doing wrong because no one has told them so. Now you might say, "Well, I commented on their video telling them it was a disgrace!". But, how did you say it? Was it kindly as if you wanted to help them, or in a way that would anger them and cause them to actually rebel against you, instead of listen to you?

After thinking so long and hard about this, I actually contacted by message, a YouTube magic exposer. I was kind, didn't reprimand him, but simply told him I would help him along in magic. He then started to rely on my guidance and that opened up the avenue to explain why exposing magic was bad. Guidance is the key.

Most of the kids on YouTube have never heard of Card College or the Royal Road to Card Magic. If you talked about Dai Vernon with them, they would not know who he is! They just start out at Ellusionist and know nothing else. They do not know about the do's and don'ts of magic. They do not know the past of magic. They really don't know anything.

So, next time before you slam someone for exposing something, take the high road instead. Message them, talk to them kindly, explain that you want to help them in their journey in the wonderful world of magic and THEN explain why exposure is bad. So, in a way, the internet is ruining some "new" magicians, because they receive no guidance or mentors, just DVD's with tricks on them. Once again, mentoring, not slamming, is the way to go. That is the way to truly help these "babies" of magic. Peace!

Tyler

P.S. Also, after explaining that exposure is bad, don't drop them as a mentor. (lol) That would just be cruel.

P.P.S. As for David J. Castle, he's just a spineless wimpy nerd with bad hair. (lol)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 5, 2009
8
0
Score for Tyler. This is the attitude I wish I had without thinking about it. I am a little to quick to get upset rather than look at WHY. And as for my title of this post, maybe I shouldn't have said ruining magic, but maybe cheapening it. It's not taking away from me personally, but it is creating a generation of people who don't or won't dispel belief for just one moment and allow themselves to be amazed, rather than just skeptical.
 
My question is does it even matter these exposure videos exist?
I mean think about it, who even types in magic exposed in the youtube search bar? I'll tell you who,
other magicians, curious people, people looking for kicks. The people who are curious onto how something works sometimes can come out to be a positive thing. Maybe since they have seen the tutorial onto how to do the double lift, they become genuinly interested in the art of magic.

The people who are looking for magic stuff for kicks forget the methodology within a week. Even if they run into a magician who performs a double lift but entirely different routine, chances are they will not catch a thing.

My point is in my eyes exposure stimulates creativity, if people actually take the time to creates something original magic won't become cheap but will double in value. "work on things that will actually pay off" for the community


Plus if you don't like the teaching, "create your own materials, its an art form mofos"

anyway enough of my rant *hint*

peace,

Nexus
 
Oct 24, 2007
314
0
My question is does it even matter these exposure videos exist?
I mean think about it, who even types in magic exposed in the youtube search bar?

I agree that laymen don't go searching for magic on YouTube. Although, I have met one spectator that has, but it didn't affect my performing for him.

Anyway, with that said, I must say, it's still good to be a mentor to these YouTube exposers. From the view point of exposing magic to laymen, it might be okay for those exposure videos to be on YouTube, because laymen don't really see it.

BUT, as Nexus said, MAGICIANS are the ones that see them. Which still makes it wrong! The internet is "ruining" young magicians in this way, because most of them do not have a mentor. All they do is watch DVD's with singular tricks on them and they learn nothing more than the method. They do not learn anything about presentation, the history of magic, or where they should go with their magic. So, they still need a mentor!

Anyway, I think this is a really good thread. I wish more people would reply. Peace!

Tyler
 
Magic and the "exposure" you see on youtube I don't think harms magic that much. It's frustrating and irritating beyond all hell for us because we're the marks that paid the $30 dollars to learn how to make a pen roll off a table with "no hands" only to find out that we could have learned it for free on the net.

Unfortunatly, we as a fraturnity will need to come to grips with how we are going to handle this new media. Like it or hate it, the internet IS the new frontier as far as magic is concerned. What we see now on the web is simular to what magicians like Mark Wilson discovered in television back in the 50's and 60's.

There will always be the people out there that just want to know how it's done. I don't think there will be anything anyone can do to stop that. I've contacted YT before on the subject matter with magic and they don't care. If you are good enough, creative enough, and flexible enough I think you shouldnt have anything to worry about with the net exposures.

If anything the youtube exposure as well as Magics Secrets Revealed serries is bringing new faces to the art and generating interest in performing/ learning magic. Magic has always been dominated by what almost seems to me like a 3 to 1 ratio of amatures/ hobbiest to pros anyways. So again, for those of us who actually make a living at this I don't think will suffer.

Lastly, I look at it like this: In the words of Penn Jellette: "Get seven new tricks".
 

CalvinTan

Elite Member
YouTube only removes explicit material (such as porn). Copyrighted videos (such as clips from TV shows) are removed when the company that owns those rights contacts YouTube and tells them to remove it. It is up to the companies to tell YouTube to remove copyrighted content. As far as magic is concerned, it would be great if magicians could contact YouTube to take down exposure, however since there are no copyrights, this would not work.

I think YouTube exposure has hurt mainly the magicians that perform for the same people consistently (such as friends). Your friends are more likely to look it up on the internet! Professional magic gigs are not really effected. I've never seen an audience member look up a magic trick on their iphone during a performance. They might go home and look it up, but by then you've done your job as an entertainer and you're long gone by then.

-Calvin
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,699
1
34
Here is a lovely metaphor that pertains to this situation:

Guns don't kill people, but blood loss usually does...
 
To tell you the truth, I actually think web-based communities like Theory11, Ellusionist, etc. do more harm to the craft than the blatant exposure on YouTube. I know that'll probably get me flack from all angles, and I realize I might look like a hypocrite for consistently posting here, but try to hear me out before throwing me to the flames.

The recent modern commercialism of magic is ruining the craft in my opinion. I see so many demos flaunting new tricks, artists, and decks of cards. Granted, the quality of these videos is very admirable and the content is usually superb, but they seem to inspire and encourage too much of a copycat mentality among younger, aspiring magicians. Instead of learning about the value of originality and creativity or the importance of theory behind the structure of an effect, people are more focused on using the same deck of cards Blaine uses and the prospect of painting their fingernails black like Dan Sperry. It's ridiculous.

I find these same individuals occasionally coming on to the forums to ask how to do magic professionally. They end up getting upset with any worthwhile reply they receive because it generally doesn't match the super-cool image projected on the video demos they saw in the first place. What does this lead to? Someone with a few good tricks up his sleeve doing bad magic without an appreciation for work ethic or proper performing values. It leads to people posting videos of bad magic online. It leads to people doing bad magic in real life. Unfortunately, I think that websites like these inherently encourage this behavior. It's a consequence for working in such an interactive medium.

Don't get me wrong. These communities do hold a wealth of knowledge and respectable names with good gouge. But I also feel that the advice worth listening to is often too little and far in between. Everytime someone posts a thread that has the potential to really challenge the way magicians think and perform, it seems to get lost in the midst of pointless conversation, unnecessary polls, and immature bickering. These communities preach offering goldmines-- endless amounts of valuable insight and instruction. But in my opinion, an amateur really has to sift through tons of garbage and be careful to not be misled before finding a even spec of gold. That wasn't always the case.

Prior to the internet, I feel that magic was richer with substance and original thinkers. People read books more often. More magicians were mature, intellectual performers. They were naturally more interactive, because they needed to learn from actual experience performing. Since the advent of the internet and these communities, I feel magic has regressed to an extent. It's easy to go online and be spoonfed the answers to a problem. It's easy to go online and show off your latest material. It's easy to go online and buy the next biggest thing. But does going online for answers replace work ethic and experience? It shouldn't be the case. But magicians aren't working nearly as hard as they used to in order to become proficient, and I think that's what's harming magic. It often leads to the blind leading the blind.

The internet encourages people to buy their careers and settle with mediocrity. For example, look at the media videos on this website. In all honesty, they're essentially all the same. And I bet these people all learned their material from the same sources. And they're settling with that. I understand people may have similar stadards, but isn't this a problem?

I don't mean to sound instigative, but it really does look like you're all just becoming glorified Uncle Bobs who only perform for family at birthday parties and get-togethers. Sure, the material may be different-- more edgy and hardcore, but you're performing it just as badly with the same shallow intention to show off whatever magic tricks you can. I think this is the type of magician that the internet has spawned.

RS.
 
Dec 29, 2008
59
0
Colorado
I agree with Tyler's response...and never actually thought of actually mentoring sombody in that situation. Excelent idea.

As for hurting magic, its annoying for sure, especially when you dropped your cash on an effect, then see it poorly exposed on the net. Hurting it, no, not really. Perhpas giving it a boost. I think as magicians, we can spin postitive from this. Use it to get the creative juices flowing. If we in the magic fraternity see a move exposed, then we find a more creative way to do it.

I am by no means a professional magician, but I know probally 8-10 different methods for a double lift, and i am always trying to find a method that will fit my style and physique the best. In my mind, magic happes from the performance, not the slight. I can watch magicians perform the same effects I can, and still be amazed (even though I know the method) becase of the performance.

So in closing, it is a hurdle that magicians will have to cope with. The internet is not going away, youtube is not going away, heckelers are not going away, and exposers are not going away. So lets keep "one-upping" those people and make our craft as mind blowing and astonishing as it can be.
 
Jun 24, 2008
493
0
Harrisonburg, VA
To tell you the truth, I actually think web-based communities like Theory11, Ellusionist, etc. do more harm to the craft than the blatant exposure on YouTube. I know that'll probably get me flack from all angles, and I realize I might look like a hypocrite for consistently posting here, but try to hear me out before throwing me to the flames.

The recent modern commercialism of magic is ruining the craft in my opinion. I see so many demos flaunting new tricks, artists, and decks of cards. Granted, the quality of these videos is very admirable and the content is usually superb, but they seem to inspire and encourage too much of a copycat mentality among younger, aspiring magicians. Instead of learning about the value of originality and creativity or the importance of theory behind the structure of an effect, people are more focused on using the same deck of cards Blaine uses and the prospect of painting their fingernails black like Dan Sperry. It's ridiculous.

I find these same individuals occasionally coming on to the forums to ask how to do magic professionally. They end up getting upset with any worthwhile reply they receive because it generally doesn't match the super-cool image projected on the video demos they saw in the first place. What does this lead to? Someone with a few good tricks up his sleeve doing bad magic without an appreciation for work ethic or proper performing values. It leads to people posting videos of bad magic online. It leads to people doing bad magic in real life. Unfortunately, I think that websites like these inherently encourage this behavior. It's a consequence for working in such an interactive medium.

Don't get me wrong. These communities do hold a wealth of knowledge and respectable names with good gouge. But I also feel that the advice worth listening to is often too little and far in between. Everytime someone posts a thread that has the potential to really challenge the way magicians think and perform, it seems to get lost in the midst of pointless conversation, unnecessary polls, and immature bickering. These communities preach offering goldmines-- endless amounts of valuable insight and instruction. But in my opinion, an amateur really has to sift through tons of garbage and be careful to not be misled before finding a even spec of gold. That wasn't always the case.

Prior to the internet, I feel that magic was richer with substance and original thinkers. People read books more often. More magicians were mature, intellectual performers. They were naturally more interactive, because they needed to learn from actual experience performing. Since the advent of the internet and these communities, I feel magic has regressed to an extent. It's easy to go online and be spoonfed the answers to a problem. It's easy to go online and show off your latest material. It's easy to go online and buy the next biggest thing. But does going online for answers replace work ethic and experience? It shouldn't be the case. But magicians aren't working nearly as hard as they used to in order to become proficient, and I think that's what's harming magic. It often leads to the blind leading the blind.

The internet encourages people to buy their careers and settle with mediocrity. For example, look at the media videos on this website. In all honesty, they're essentially all the same. And I bet these people all learned their material from the same sources. And they're settling with that. I understand people may have similar stadards, but isn't this a problem?

I don't mean to sound instigative, but it really does look like you're all just becoming glorified Uncle Bobs who only perform for family at birthday parties and get-togethers. Sure, the material may be different-- more edgy and hardcore, but you're performing it just as badly with the same shallow intention to show off whatever magic tricks you can. I think this is the type of magician that the internet has spawned.

RS.

Bravo. (word count)
 
I don't particulary like how magic has become a buisness in some regards; it sort of takes away its mysterious-ness. Personally, I don't want more people becoming magicians, it takes away the wonder and mystery of it. That's why I don't like Ellusionist's "You too can learn magic now at ellusionist.com!" I don't want magic to become "just another hobby," like sports, music, or collecting. I would like magicians to be few and far between...I never want to see the day when spectators say, "Oh look, it's another magician." Like I said, I think magic should be mysterious and should inspire wonder(kinda like d+M's website, lol).

As for Youtube exposure, I don't like it but there really isn't anything we can do about it....But I do like Tyler Johnson's idea.

Don't become so open-minded that your brains fall out.
Z
 
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