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Is there any truth to this statement?

Jul 25, 2017
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I've heard somewhere (can't remember where or by who at the moment) that when card hustlers deal seconds, they don't care about briefs (the "gap" where the second card is seen below the first). Apparently they don't mind having a brief a mile long. The justification for this by the guy I heard it from was that, and I paraphrase:

"In a whole night of dealing seconds, eventually the thumb gets tired and the brief becomes inconsistant, therefore, a hustler always tilts the deck so that the other players can't see the top of it (they only see the edges)."

I have some problems with this statement, but first I've got to ask: Is the statement true in any way?
 
Jul 25, 2017
37
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Well, doesn't look like anyone has got an answer yet, which further confirm my conclusion that the statement is complete bunk.

It just doesn't make any sense.
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Most of the people here are not going to be experienced with actual gambling cheaters, so it's not likely you're going to get valid information on these forums for this subject.

I don't gamble, or even play cards, so I refrained from commenting previously. I do, however, use the second deal a LOT in my card work. The brief doesn't matter. When I'm using the move the thing I'm worrying about is keeping the dealing smooth, as if I'm dealing fair. When I am taking the second card, the deck is in a position where no one can see if I'm taking the top, bottom, second, or whatever.

But again, I don't play cards. I have no idea if this would fly in a serious game, but I strongly suspect that congruent dealing is more important than a tiny brief.
 
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Jul 25, 2017
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Most of the people here are not going to be experienced with actual gambling cheaters, so it's not likely you're going to get valid information on these forums for this subject.

I don't gamble, or even play cards, so I refrained from commenting previously. I do, however, use the second deal a LOT in my card work. The brief doesn't matter. When I'm using the move the thing I'm worrying about is keeping the dealing smooth, as if I'm dealing fair. When I am taking the second card, the deck is in a position where no one can see if I'm taking the top, bottom, second, or whatever.

But again, I don't play cards. I have no idea if this would fly in a serious game, but I strongly suspect that congruent dealing is more important than a tiny brief.

Really, well, how do you hold the deck so that no one can see the top?

Also, does your thumb get tired after dealing a LOT of seconds?

Thanks for the reply.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Expert at the Card Table, P. 60

Yes, my hands get tired sometimes. Well, they used to. I rarely do that much sleight of hand these days as I have dramatically shifted my style of performance over the years.
 
Jul 25, 2017
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Which edition? (I am not a wealthy man...)

So, does your thumb lose it's sense of touch and ability when you have dealt too many seconds?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Expert at the Card Table is in the public domain. You can get the PDF and read the section on Second Dealing.

I don't think I've ever gone numb, no. Mostly just get raw after long enough.
 
Jul 25, 2017
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Erdnase makes no mentions on the inclination of the deck in the second deal section. He does, however, paraphrase Hoyle under the bottom deal section, where he suggests the deck be inclined downwards.
 
Jul 28, 2015
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To answer your question no they wouldn't mind a wide brief especially if the deck is borderless, which what is mostly used in a card game, if they were to be playing against fast company then yeah they might mind a little close the breaf and neck tie the deck but no don't think they would mind against regular players...
 
Jul 25, 2017
37
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To answer your question no they wouldn't mind a wide brief especially if the deck is borderless, which what is mostly used in a card game, if they were to be playing against fast company then yeah they might mind a little close the breaf and neck tie the deck but no don't think they would mind against regular players...

Ok, well, do you agree that necktying the deck hides the top of it, so that a larger brief would fly in a game?
And do you think that excessive use of second dealing during a game will make your thumb tired, to the degree of not being consistant in the push off/pull back?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Out of curiosity, why do you care? This is not an accusation, I'm genuinely curious as you seem to be really hung up on this concept.
 
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Jul 25, 2017
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Out of curiosity, why do you care? This is not an accusation, I'm genuinely curious as you seem to be really hung up on this concept.

I doubt I would ever "move" in a game, not because I don't need the money, nor is it because I have some moral dilema about cheating: Rather, it's because of my nerves, I probably wouldn't dare make a move when the stakes are high enough to warant it.

Never the less I want to make sure I have as good an understanding as possible when in comes to card mechanics and the like. I am somewhat of a perfectionist.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Might want to look for people who are either actual card cheats, or who have been involved in that world at least, then. These forums are mostly casual magicians (Which is not to speak down on them, it's just not where I'd go for factual information).
 
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Jul 25, 2017
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Might want to look for people who are either actual card cheats, or who have been involved in that world at least, then. These forums are mostly casual magicians (Which is not to speak down on them, it's just not where I'd go for factual information).

How very true, but I just wondered if anyone had had the thumb fatigue spoken about, or if anyone else saw the problems that I see with necktying a deck in a game.
 
Jul 28, 2015
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Thumb fatigue isn't an issue when dealing seconds, if that were the case then dealing off the deck normally would also be an issue since the action and mechanics are basically the same...
 
Jul 25, 2017
37
7
Thumb fatigue isn't an issue when dealing seconds, if that were the case then dealing off the deck normally would also be an issue since the action and mechanics are basically the same...

The fatigue wouldn't affect the standard deal, as it is not as fine of a movement. The second deal, on the other hand might be affected by some fatigue, because it's a much more precise movement.

The question is then:
Can you get thumb fatigue that affects your second deal by dealing a large amount of seconds during a game?
 
Jan 26, 2017
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The fatigue wouldn't affect the standard deal, as it is not as fine of a movement. The second deal, on the other hand might be affected by some fatigue, because it's a much more precise movement.

The question is then:
Can you get thumb fatigue that affects your second deal by dealing a large amount of seconds during a game?
I'm not a card cheat, sharp, gambling fanatic, nor do I perform any gambling routines. However, I do like to play friendly card games with friends (not gambling, just games like BS or Slap Jack, etc.).

That Being Said, I don't think there is a game, especially not a gambling one, where the cards are dealt so often that your thumb does not have a chance to reset between rounds. Lets say your playing Texas Holdem (I game I only know how to play, but never have or will). At Most you will have 10, or even 11 players at the table. You will at most deal 10 cards with a second before dealing the top card. There is no way you can stack a deck to get you a card 22 cards down without a trick deck, and you probably will get a trick deck caught in an 11 man game. That leaves you with a full 11 people betting before you deal the flop, turn, and river. Your thumb will have antiquate time to rest between rounds, and if it doesn't you can always switch to bottoms.

So unless you are a hustler playing a million rounds at a million different places back to back to back all in a night, you probably wont. And even then, your thumb has a chance to rest in between. So the answer to your question is probably no. Fatigue will probably only ever occur during practice. Not to mention cheating probably builds Adrenaline, which is a natural pain reliever, and will reew your energy for a bit, so even if you do, you'll probably be fine.


P.S. This isn't saying anyone should cheat in a real game :D Don'tDoItIzBad
 
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Jul 25, 2017
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Thank you for the reply, I believe we are one the same page on this issue.

Then we have the problem of necktying:
I don't believe in people who say they necktie in a game so that no one can see the top card, do you?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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The only time my thumbs get tired is when I'm learning a move.

I think you're thinking about this a bit wrong. Using the term 'necktie' implies a significant tilt upwards, so that the top of the deck is parallel with your own body. Think of it more that the front edge of the deck is pointed at the eyes of the person across the table, and a little to the right (if the deck is your left hand). At least, that's how I do it.

This mimics the natural way I deal cards fair as well. I feel that's the most important thing - make it all congruent.
 
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Jul 28, 2015
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Yeah that's basically what neck tying is it's just that most people especially magicians exaggerate and over do it... Also in my experience regarding the thumb fatigue issue, I tend to deal seconds exactly the way I deal off the top that's why I think it isn't much of a problem
 
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