Is this an original trick?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gabemagggic, May 3, 2012.

  1. Hy,
    I created a trick what uses 2 moves by other creators. Is it MY original trick, so can I sell it?
    I didn't use the whole trick by the other artist but I used just a part from each trick.

    (I don't want to say what is the trick because I'd like to make a video about it.)
     
  2. Morally, you need to get their permission. Especially if the bulk of the trick involves their moves.

    If you ever watch commentary on David Copperfield's "Illusion" DVD he talks about the cocoon effect. When he rips the sheet away to reveal that he changed places with his assistant he is able to say some thing along the lines of "I used that reveal with permission from Jonathon Pendragon". All that he is doing is throwing a sheet, but he knew that it was similar enough to the Pendragon's "Metamorphosis" that he felt it necessary to get permission to use it.

    When I am confronted with a moral problem in magic I think of this example. Is what I am doing greater then the Pendragon's reveal? If it is then I think twice about using it without permission.
     
  3. The trick and routining may be original to you but as goatears said, you should ask for permission if you have to teach someone elses move(s).
    I have a trick that uses the move from The Mirror Transpo on bluecrown so I wouldn't think of publishing it without working something out with Bogdan. Then again, lot's of people have probably created the move(s) you're using so why should give them credit just because they had the means to publish it first?

    Depends entirely on your outlook.
     
  4. I would need Oz Pearlman's permission and Patrick Kun's permission.
    How can I send them a mail to show my trick?
     
  5. I've seen some professionals, when explaining a move they are using, say "I know so-and-so has something similar to this, but I came up with this independently of him." It seems if you make a move on your own without prior knowledge of someone else creating it, it's yours? Another dilemma there I suppose. But if the moves are explicitly someone else's, then yes, you will need their permission to teach them.
     
  6. You must have permission for the "move, sleight, or handling".

    For example: If you have a routine or effect that involves and Asher twist (even just to reverse a card) you must contact Lee Asher for permission.
     
  7. But my question is that how can I contact with them?
    Using the contact info on their page?
     
  8. Yes. Most magicians are quite easy to get in touch with. Oz Pearlman's email address is on his website and Patrick Kun has a contact form on his.
     
  9. Just a question,

    If we had a trick that used the Asher Twist and we only said in the explanation "do the asher twist" do we still need permission to use it??

    -Zach
     
  10. Not really, but why wouldn't you get in touch with Lee Asher about it anyway? It's a nice, friendly, polite thing to do and maybe he'll give you permission to teach his move in full anyway. Maybe he'll love your trick and give you an extra little tip that makes it better, or maybe he'll give you a quote that you can use in your promotion. Even if he doesn't really like it, then at least you've got that feedback from a well-known pro before you rush to release. It's a no-lose situation. I've got some stuff that I'm working up to selling at the moment and I'm going to be getting in touch with anyone I can think of who's got work even slightly tangentially related to it.
     
  11. I think you need to ask yourself if you "need" to use these specific moves that were created by others in order to have a new effect. If you can eliminate those moves and substitute them for more common moves, moves that have been around long enough that they are basically public domain, and you still have a new effect, then...you have a new effect! If using these moves, by other creators merely, makes another pre-existing effect better, then all you have is a nice twist on an old effect.

    So for instance, there is an effect I do called "Throwing Star." (it's unpublished but I feel safe in calling it my own effect) In that effect I use a Losing control(Lee Asher) and Earnest Earick's version of the convincing control. I can eliminate those two moves and replace them with more common controls and the effect is still unique. Thus, it's mine. (provided someone doesn't reverse engineer it and rush to publish before I do!:eek: ) I also have (as do most card magicians) an ACR that is pretty unique to me. The ACR includes a Silver Surfer, a commonly used sandwich effect, a Gravaty Half Pass, and a slight modification to Ben Earl's Stroke Change. Were I to swap the Silver Surfer for a double under cut, the Gravity Half Pass for a standard half pass, and the Stroke Change for an Erdnase Change, the ACR would be a pretty common, run of the mill, ACR. Thus, though it is one of my favorite routines, I would never think of publishing it.

    So, do the same process with this effect you are talking about. Replace the moves you are currently using with more common varieties of those moves and ask yourself if your effect is something new.
     
  12. Yes...you must ask for permission. You CANNOT just say "do the Asher twist". The reason I know is because I submitted something with the Asher Twist and Lee Asher said "NO" you cannot submit the effect using my Asher Twist.

    Eostresh is a little more correct by saying, stay away from artists' key moves and go with something basic, but yet it still needs to be a "new" effect. I have submitted many things in the past year with Ed Ellis and MANY get turned away for still not being original enough and he is one of the top card technicians around.

    Example: Ed does a 5 card lift into a Shape Shifter, then pitches the cards out into a finger tip display and hiding the original indifferent card. It was declined because it involved a Shape Shifter (even though it was a 5 card shapeshifter into a nice display).

    Effects that are "outside" the box so to speak have a better shot at getting accepted.
     
  13. Oh, are we specifically talking about submitting effects to The Wire? My answer related to publishing a trick in general.
     
  14. TeeDee, it could be for publishing an effect anywhere. I was just throwing out an example. A lot of younger guys don't understand how much time and effort it takes to research an effect and contact all of the people who have worked on it prior and get permission and things like that before moving forward and trying to release something.

    This topic was just brought up at our convention last weekend.
     
  15. One thing Rick alludes to but does not state out right. Get a correspondence with a well known and published effect creator. DON"T start it just because you want their advice! But as you progress in magic be open to opportunities to get to know these guys. Ed Ellis, in the case of Rick. They have been through the process before. They have had effects rejected before, and chances are they have had to research various plots before. They can give you the hard truth if you need it, "Sorry kid that's been done a million time," and if it is new to them they can send you off in a direction that will help you properly research your effect. It is Impossible for any magician to be 100 % sure that their work is completely unique in the magic literature. Not even Harry Lorrain could be absolutely positive a new effect is completely unique because, while he has a great memory, there is too much magic literature out there for one person to have read it all. So build trusted relationships, be prepared for a big let down, and ask someone you trust!

    I recently published my first effect and, while I was well read on the vanishing deck plot, I still asked some trusted guys who know more than I. I got pointed in a direction of an obscure set of lecture notes that has a small publication run about 20 years ago. Fortunately, when I contacted the guy it turned out to be a very different method, but I mention it to illustrate how extensive your research should be and to offer tips on how to go about it.

    And just to reiterate! DO NOT try to befriend a well known effect creators simply to get their advice. That would be rude and self serving! But many of them are very open and friendly people and don't be afraid to approach them. If a correspondence develops naturally from that, then you can follow some of the above advice.
     
  16. What I would do in this situation is try hard to find a move that is your own and use it there. Once I have explained how to do it with my own sleight I might make the suggestion that they check an alternate source "this could also be accomplished using the Asher Twist published in..." in this instance it still wouldn't hurt to send an email to Lee Asher. You might even send him a copy of the effect and ask if you could quote any of his feedback to advertise with.

    I have to agree it is super easy to get ahold of magicians. As long as it's not David Copperfield Criss Angel or David Blaine you should be able to find them through their websites.
     

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