Justin Miller on Piracy

Jun 4, 2008
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Justin,

First, I appreciate your passion regarding piracy, however your 'proof' is flawed. There have been several discussions of this very matter over on the genii forum with people who have access to the actual scientific research behind this topic. In short, many studies disagree with the conclusions your informal observations have drawn.

While I too disagree with the act of piracy, I must be intellectually honest and evaluate the facts for what they are. I suggest you explore some of those topics, or look up the studies done specifically as they relate to the RIAA claims regarding the monetary loss resulting from piracy.

On a personal note, I would like to ask a sincere question:

What do you hope to accomplish by intentionally misspelling the words 'just' and 'get?'.

Do you think this will garner respect among literate adults? Are you hoping to curry favor among children with spelling problems?

I remember one thread where you were very adamant that you were much older than I thought you were (Early 30's, late 20's?), so I assume you have a reason for this choice.

Perhaps there is another reason I simple cannot fathom. Several people have commented lately about your orthography.

Would you mind explaining what we are supposed to get from it?

Thanks
(And I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I am sincerely curious AND I hope you will find the studies I referenced interesting if not enlightening)

Brad


I disagree with your opening diatribe. My personal research has proven other results but I am willing to agree to disagree.

And honestly the reason i use spelling like "jist" and "Git" instead of "just" and "Get" is a real simple answer..I want to. No "secret hidden meaning", no "I jist do not know how to spell" it's really because I choose to do that right now in my life.
Now here is a real honest question for you and all the other peeps that seem to "care" about what JM is wearing or how JM spells certain words. WHY? Why am I so important in your thoughts that you care how I spell or how I look. It is one of the most childish, pathetic, actions I have ever seen.

Please to all of you who really take more than 5 seconds to post sumn about what I am wearing, or how I say sumn..GET A LIFE! I have one and it is GREAT!

Soooo brad there is your answer.
JM
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Please to all of you who really take more than 5 seconds to post sumn about what I am wearing, or how I say sumn..GET A LIFE! I have one and it is GREAT!

Soooo brad there is your answer.
JM

If it's so great, than why are you complaining about piracy? :D
Sorry, had to get that out of my system... I have to have at least one stupid post per day, that's what I choose to do in my life right now.

On a serious note. Are the piracy REALLY that bad for you? Are you actually telling me that if one of your DVD's get's pirated, you will have nothing to eat?.....Didn't think so....
 
WHY? Why am I so important in your thoughts that you care how I spell or how I look. It is one of the most childish, pathetic, actions I have ever seen.


You aren't to nearly as many as you seem to think.

And I can think of quite a few things from your good self that have been, as you say, childish and pathetic...

Speaking in the third person being one.



Rabid
 
Jun 4, 2008
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If it's so great, than why are you complaining about piracy? :D
Sorry, had to get that out of my system... I have to have at least one stupid post per day, that's what I choose to do in my life right now.

On a serious note. Are the piracy REALLY that bad for you? Are you actually telling me that if one of your DVD's get's pirated, you will have nothing to eat?.....Didn't think so....

Nice one that is kinda funny.
No one ever said that. But if you think that it does not affect us creators you are horribly misinformed. And really? Your going to take the gangsta approach with me?
What? huh? didn't think so.
Really...
Now here is my real problem with you toby. Your post shows an incredible amount of disrespect for magic as an ART and the creators who create it...the ARTIST themselves. Your response as a fellow magician should not be "well does it hurt you no, then shut up" which is really what you said to me but more in an intimidating way, it should be "lets work together on fixing or find a way to fix this problem" If your going to stay in this art and pursue it then please respect magic and its creators that bust their asses trying to bring you solid, practical, memorable magic. Or get out and find something else to waste your time.

JM
 
Jun 4, 2008
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You aren't to nearly as many as you seem to think.

And I can think of quite a few things from your good self that have been, as you say, childish and pathetic...

Speaking in the third person being one.



Rabid

See rabid tiger that is the kind of prideful, BS that has no place in magic as an ART.
See mr."ill say somn witty and downplaying to Justin Miller and everyone else who does not like him will like my post and my satisfaction will come from a conversation that means didly" a question was asked to me in all honesty and sincereness from Brad Henderson, so I then asked him and others WHO CARES? (concerning the matter in that post).
If you read a little further up you would have seen that.

So what? I ask a serious question and you try and put me down..come on dude grow up.

JM
 
See rabid tiger that is the kind of prideful, BS that has no place in magic as an ART.
See mr."ill say somn witty and downplaying to Justin Miller and everyone else who does not like him will like my post and my satisfaction will come from a conversation that means didly" a question was asked to me in all honesty and sincereness from Brad Henderson, so I then asked him and others WHO CARES? (concerning the matter in that post).
If you read a little further up you would have seen that.

So what? I ask a serious question and you try and put me down..come on dude grow up.

JM


I rest my case.
 
Jun 4, 2008
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I rest my case.

I object on grounds of INSANITY and loss of REALITY.
lol

JM

P.S. if you think I am one of those guys who wants everyone to like him your sadly mistaken. I will speak the truth on matters and call situations as I see them.

Your posts make no sense you do realize this right?
 
I object on grounds of INSANITY and loss of REALITY.
lol

JM

P.S. if you think I am one of those guys who wants everyone to like him your sadly mistaken. I will speak the truth on matters and call situations as I see them.

Your posts make no sense you do realize this right?


Justin, you wouldn't know the truth if I sent it to you Recorded Delivery.

Also, people that randomly shout words are normally the ones who would be thought of as insane. However, I have no problem with name calling so if that is what you wish to do then go right ahead. It's got you very far on other places.




I wish Robert Smith all the luck in the world and i truly mean that. Very talented guy.



Rabid
 
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Jun 4, 2008
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Justin, you wouldn't know the truth if I sent it to you Recorded Delivery.

Also, people that randomly shout words are normally the ones who would be thought of as insane. However, I have no problem with name calling so if that is what you wish to do then go right ahead. It's got you very far on other places.




I wish Robert Smith all the luck in the world and i truly mean that. Very talented guy.



Rabid

Sorry pal but me and B are in this together so WE appreciate the kind words.
JM
I have sent you a pm so we can talk a little longer on this fascinating subject as I know thats the right thing to do. Lets try and stay on topic folks.
JM
 
Nov 23, 2007
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Since when is it anyone else’s business how someone chooses to dress or speak? If that’s their personal style who cares? It has no bearing on talent and therefore should not be judged by others. Don’t people have better things to do with their time then worry about how someone else is acting?

Yet another validation that magicians are Aholes. I must have missed in the Magic for Dumbies manual where it said we had to be prim, proper and have our noses a minimum of 2 inches higher than everyone else’s.

Back on topic. I remember discussing some similar issues about this here while a weekend bender and being alone on this issue. Maybe it was the Cuervo. I'm not sure it matters to what degree its being done, I think the point is its being done. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don’t seem to have the tolerance for as much BS as I used to.
 
Lets try and stay on topic folks.
JM


I'm aware you're both in it Justin.

As for the topic in hand, Piracy is an unfortunate side effect of the medium that magic is presented in, the same as music and film. Everyone with any ethics and merit [no matter how big or small] does their part to stop it.

Personally, anything that can be done is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, I just worry that people are going to get in such a fuss over it that we have the same old conversations all over again...y'know the ones? Those that crop up every month on every board in the world?

If it were me? If WTF were my company, I'd spend my time and resources on a really good book. A hardbound one, with glossy photos, with proper descriptions of the effects. Then I'd publish it and give myself half a chance.

Easily said I realise and very easy for me as I love books, love buying them, reading them and then slipping them into a space on the old shelf to add to my collection. But then it would definitely cut down on the amount of people ripping you off. If they really wanted to they still could, but it would cut out all those after a fast and cheap fix.

I do however also love learning by DVD as to me it's kinda' like a movie, I can put it on, sit back with a beer and some cards and just enjoy.


Hard one for sure...I do not envy what you're both trying to do and i do also wish you luck with it.


Rabid
 
Nov 23, 2007
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If it were me? If WTF were my company, I'd spend my time and resources on a really good book. A hardbound one, with glossy photos, with proper descriptions of the effects. Then I'd publish it and give myself half a chance.

Easily said I realise and very easy for me as I love books, love buying them, reading them and then slipping them into a space on the old shelf to add to my collection. But then it would definitely cut down on the amount of people ripping you off. If they really wanted to they still could, but it would cut out all those after a fast and cheap fix.
I completely agree. I’ve heard one of the issues is the cost of publishing books vs. DVD’s although I'm not sure how true that is or weather the payoff is worth it.
 
I completely agree. I’ve heard one of the issues is the cost of publishing books vs. DVD’s although I'm not sure how true that is or weather the payoff is worth it.

Yeah, it would be more expensive...but ahhh, the feeling when it's in your hand. Especially if it's a nice chunky hardbound.

But as I said, I'm kinda' torn as I have some truly wonderful DVD's and i wouldn't want people to stop making them.


It is a very hard thing to come up with a definite answer to keeping secrets where they're supposed to be; in the heads of people with the proper ethics and morals to look after them.


Rabid
 
May 3, 2008
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ah... dont we forumers love nice big arguements?
yay...
who gives a crap about attire and outlook...
anyhoo...
Piracy is something every single hobby has to face.
Photography has DVDs and Books just like us.
Music has the CDs as well as Score Sheet.
Cooking has recipes.
etc...
If you are putting out products and can not live without the effected income, then find another source of income. Sure you have lost a lot of money, but how much will you earn when you do find some way to prevent it?
1. Piracy does get your name out for sure. Kids who just start in magic and find you in some torrent. "Hey whos this guy? Never heard of him before. DAYUM thats smart.. ah crap requires a gimmick... I guess ill have to buy it." or "dayum this guy is the s**t. omg hes having a lecture. yay...." If there wasnt any piracy, a lot less people would have known who you are. And the gimmick thing... no one is going to make a Time and Space gimmick will they?
2. Piracy spreads the art a lot better than legal buying. I bet atleast 40% of modern day magicians have started with the help of products they didnt buy. Unless they are loaded or their parents spoil them like a mofo, I am so sure that atleast half of those would have given up due to the high prices. The first DVD I bought was shocking as hell 30 dollars for a DVD. that was almost double that of a movie DVD. As for tricks which are just expensive because they are "big secrets", this will really put off some people.
3. Dont most magicians who put out products in our community also regular performers? I know some are still in University or what ever and cant really earn a lot, but majority of them should be adults yeah? Sure you dont make as much as you could, but honestly if you have a bad life because of it, then get a better day job...

Sure piracy probably lost you a bit of potentail money, but you wouldnt have made a lot more. If these kids couldnt be bothered to go buy your DVD in the first place, do you really think they will be willing to fork up the $500 for what ever they downloaded that month? not really... Either way, your DVD wouldnt have made that cash in the first place. It might be one of a few which they decide to buy in the year, but honestly it is obvious that not every single download can be converted into cash lost.

Remember the olden days when learning magic was just from other professional magicians and old ruffled 100th hand manuscripts? ah... yea... it sucked.

You know what would be the dopest dope you ever smoked? if we put like a thing in DVDs and Downloads which release a horrible virus once piracy has been activated. I wasnt sure if they did the same thing with Trojan with David Stone DVDs as when you first play the DVD there is a lot of french words then the work Trojan... so yea...
but like the worlds worst virus...
"YAY! I GOT A NEW PIRATED DVD OF MAGIC MCMAGIC OR WHATEVER!! YAY! now putting the DVD in... and.. open... *click*"
*KABOOM*
computer blows up in his face and shards of glass fly into his hands.
"WHY!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!??!!!?"
cause youre a dumbass thats why! :D yay.... im really bored.
 
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RickEverhart

forum moderator / t11
Elite Member
Sep 14, 2008
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Sciffydof made some great points. I definitely agree with the piracy getting your name out there to kids who otherwise wouldn't buy something. It definitely makes them want more material from the artist and they would be willing to go to a lecture once they know who the artist is.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Not that it matters but here is where I stand on the whole piracy thing. It sucks but I dont feel like it really hurts the sales of magic as much as you might think. We live in the age of piracy from torrents and the sales of magic tricks are more popular than ever. Also sometimes you may see that a product was downloaded illegally 25,000 times but theres no way to tell if 25,000 people actually have it on their computer. Honestly if 25,000 people illegally downloaded the dvd that you(Justin) were speaking of there would be more discussion on internet forums. I only point out this error to give you some hope about piracy and it's negative effects. It's not that bad. My advice to creators is to realize that you just cant simply put out DVDs and expect to make a living at it. Think old school, those guys would put out product, they would do lectures and they would actually do magic for real people. They would hustle and still many of them would have to work second jobs.
Let me say this regardless of how much piracy hurts the industry, it hurts the creators and the companies. I mean this as a personal hurt not a financial hurt. To be honest the thing that has hurt magic the most is probably the industry we are concerned with saving.
Shaun
 
Wow this discussion is going downhill real quick the reason for this could be Justin the very ones your complaining to haven't had the luxury of selling their own material and hence the lack of concern of piracy for they don't see how it effects them and the art as a whole. Piracy is an issue in anything replicate name brand clothing, purses, DVD's, credit cards, music, magic, etc, yaddi yaddi yaddi, it will always be there but without a course of action from the few then there wouldn't be any slowing the machine down. So what do we do as individuals to help? Do we pay and have a backbone? This is something we all have to figure out for ourselves. Now back to the topic.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Since when is it anyone else’s business how someone chooses to dress or speak? If that’s their personal style who cares? It has no bearing on talent and therefore should not be judged by others. Don’t people have better things to do with their time then worry about how someone else is acting?

Yet another validation that magicians are Aholes. .

If magic is an art, and if its pracitioners are artists, then how they represent themselves informs and defines the nature of their art. Blaine's look is as much a part of his magic as his tricks. In fact, many consider his stylistic choices a key to his success - he 'put a new face' on magic, so to speak.

As Max Maven has written 'everything matters'. Each detail contibutes to the experience. Each brushstroke is important to the artist. The first rule of art, as they say, is intention.

Justin claims to be an artist. Therefor he is claiming that his work stems from a place of intention - specifically an intention to convey a feeling response as a result of the symbolic choice made by the artist. (This, by the way, is all basic ART 101 stuff).

So, it becomes reasonable to ask why he has chosen to present himself and magic the way he does - how that fits in with his artistic goals.

So, yes, it is a valid question. Magicians have debated such matters from the days of Houdin. The discussion continued with Henning,Copperfield, and of course Blaine and Angel. Each of those men made conscious choices with the intent to convey their desired feelingful response. I was curious what response Justin was hoping to elicit by misspelling words. Intentional or not, I cannot personally see how feigning illiteracy will produce a postive result among literate people, but that would be his choice - had he decided to make one.

Justin,

The problem with your conclusions and those of the RIAA apparently) is the assumption that everyone who downloads an item would have ever bought it on their own.
Second, there is evidence that downloads like this can lead to future sales as someone who would have never bought an item downloads it, likes it, and begins supporting the artist.

To be clear, I am NOT advocating piracy. However people who have spent their lives studying how to analyze problems like this have spent countless hours and thousands of dollars looking at this issue; and to dismiss their findings as 'we have to agree to disagree' would be akin to telling an astronomer that the sun revolves around the earth because your informal observations clearly show that it does.

Some people care about facts, some don't.

For those that do, please check out some of the studies available.

Brad
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Brad I think you are reading a bit to far into this subject.

Studies really mean nothing, they become irrelvant with time. I think inaccurate would be a better word to use.

Also as an aside, if I here art and magic then a very cheesy painters analogy again I think I may kill a baby, or an angel whichever I can catch.
 
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