Justin Miller on Piracy

Dec 16, 2008
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I wrote a big long post...then looking for this video, I erased it all...so in short, there are a few people in magic video downloaders:

Those that are ripping people off, so they avoid being ripped off by bad videos with poor quality effects - they don't want to waste money. This argument only holds up if you are BUYING the videos from the ones they sample and life. Afterall, you are getting paid with their stuff - if you aren't sending that money back full circle, it is classless.

In music, people download tunes - I personally buy albums after I sampe them. If you don't, and we all download - CD stores lose money, as do the artists, they have to up their prices, less people buy so less music is made. This effects the music industry...but less so. Why? Well, one person in magic represent a larger percentage of the market than in music - but we do see the impact that websites that allow free downloads have.

Then we have guy 2 - the guy that is just taking and taking to build up his massive collection of videos? He downloads videos like someone is going to erase them all the next day, or the internet will make it illeagal - never giving money back to the artists whose material he does. This is stealing.

Which reminds me of this Chapelle skit on "if the internet was a real place" - it would be disgusting...people having sex with horses, pooping in a cup, stealing identities, and a bunch of magic nerds talking about ideas that nobody gives a cra....you know what, I got to go.

The point - if you download and the video sucks - you saved money - but if it is good - send the money back to the artist. I only say this because I would never have known about Hollingsworth, Asher, Fisher and a few others - if it weren't for a mix VHS tape a buddy made for me...yep, VHS, I am friggin old. However, I have put money back in every one of those artists pocket...especally Lee...he beats me up for my lunch money daily.

So, yeah...maybe we can't or won't stop downloading - I personally don't do it, but when I was young...it was a quick fix to not being rich neough to buy it all. However, the issue is beyond money - magic used to be a brotherhood - we bonded over sharing something important - the secret to something we found through earning the right to learn it from another, or finding something in print/video that not everyone could just click and take. Like I read in magic mag - we used to Oogle over magic...now we google over magic. It makes the secret less valuable - don't think so? Name one thing you are proud of you didn't work hard for? That is what I thought - nothing - so how is stealing a video working hard for the secret...or building the brotherhood by sharing? What is to bring us together? It seems all we chat about now is "presentation" because anyone that is on this forum can also steal magic from a million sources. Why would you want to take from an art you love, but never give back in support. Why? Selfish reasons are all that come to mind. When you buy something you aren't spending money - you are contributing to your art. Anyhow...this got long again...just copy and paste the Chapelle link if you haven't seen it...and imagine if he covered how we act on forums, youtube and torrent - cheers.

http://www.reallybored.net/videos/What-if-the-Internet-Was-a-Place-You-Could-Go-To

Words, I agree with you on many points, man.
I also think Privacy helps creators improve their name instead of their pocket. Well, how the hell American magicians/singers etc can be known in an developing country? With the price of DVD+shipping cost the damn month expense of a family?
You can complain but what you think those people suppose to do? It's life, unfair.
If the creators get hurt by privacy, their customers do too. I hate to see torrents of products that cost me $$$$$$ of dollars to purchase.....Even people who pay $100+ for De'vo Secret book actually scan it then put on internet. WTF?
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Brad I think you are reading a bit to far into this subject.

Studies really mean nothing, they become irrelvant with time. I think inaccurate would be a better word to use.

Also as an aside, if I here art and magic then a very cheesy painters analogy again I think I may kill a baby, or an angel whichever I can catch.
Yes, what could magic hope to gain but studying something cheesy like painting, drama, or music? After all, everyone is the world respects magic as an art, and no one takes those other cheesy things seriously.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Yes, what could magic hope to gain but studying something cheesy like painting, drama, or music? After all, everyone is the world respects magic as an art, and no one takes those other cheesy things seriously.

Wow I do not even have to kill the baby your sarcasm is choking it to death. Not once did I say that magic shouldn't study outer influences, Project much?

Anyway you can keep saying things that are completely opinionated such as I am doing right now. You can have your soap box to stand on bask in your self projected glory.

I find magic being compared to true art music, painting, sculpture, etc. Laughable.

I would be more prone to say other whys if magic was still the same as it was back in the Maskelyn era of magic, heck lets go farther then that back to Robert Houdin's time. Magic then had class often many of the acts had names and were called plays. Now its all about the ninja assassin magic.

Look how about this, I say your right does that boost you up any
 
chris,
Thats the problem though. How many people do think I sell to over seas and other countries MORE THAN HERE I assure u. So they buy them copy them and then hand them out at local magic meetings.
JM
Its plain and simple, piracy will never be stopped. But to cut down on it. Just make more books. Kids and lazy people hate to read.....

However if anyone (especially all working magicians) has a burnt C.D., ipod, or whatever it may be. There shouldn't be the slightest of complaining. Think about how these musical artists feel when we(as a whole) don't buy their albums and just burn them. They become pissed.

If they can deal with it, then so can magicians.


Also, thats just isn't right how people seem to talk to Justin. He has the right views on magic and is actually trying to get a real answer for a problem. We should give him just that other than Grief. He's taking the high road as a man and a magician, while we(as a whole) are being outright classless. Aren't we the one who wants to learn his stuff??? i'm just saying....
 
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Dec 14, 2007
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I find magic being compared to true art music, painting, sculpture, etc. Laughable.

I would be more prone to say other whys if magic was still the same as it was back in the Maskelyn era of magic, heck lets go farther then that back to Robert Houdin's time. Magic then had class often many of the acts had names and were called plays. Now its all about the ninja assassin magic.

Look how about this, I say your right does that boost you up any

If you are talking about "in practice" I agree. "In theory" I do not. Magic can be as moving and as relevant as any of the other established arts. Is it often that way?

No.

Can it be?

Yes.

Should it be?

People can argue that point. Personally, I think it is a noble goal towards which to strive.

As far as I'm concerned, only 7 members in this forum think magic is an art form.
http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=22155


I won't go the numeric route, but I will say that my observations indicate that the more frequently someone uses the words "art" or "artist" the less likely they have any idea of what "art" or "being an artist" actually means.

Craft and Art and Content Provider are three different things. Calling yourself one means nothing.

Brad I think you are reading a bit to far into this subject.

Studies really mean nothing, they become irrelvant with time. I think inaccurate would be a better word to use.

Really?

You want to keep this as your final answer?

Brad
 
Excuses excuses.
:eek:

I think we need to stop calling magic art unless we can back it up with something.
Only my opinion of course. . .
dude all you have to do is define art....art is a set of skills learned from extensive practice....plain and simple...thats just like saying throwing a football isn't a artform, or martial arts isnt an artform...they in fact are....hell porn is an artform....you aren't born and one day u wake up you know how to perform magic effects....the same with all of the above.....any skills taught through preperation or practice is an artform...
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Really?

You want to keep this as your final answer?

Brad

Yes I would, keep it in the magic field.

Also I have not seen this study information you have claimed has been done. If its statistics, and not hardcore data forget about it.
With respect naturally,

Silver
 
dude all you have to do is define art....art is a set of skills learned from extensive practice....plain and simple...thats just like saying throwing a football isn't a artform, or martial arts isnt an artform...they in fact are....hell porn is an artform....you aren't born and one day u wake up you know how to perform magic effects....the same with all of the above.....any skills taught through preperation or practice is an artform...

Except skill only takes you so far without having a natural talent to add to it. I for one beleive through and through that magic is an art. Yes a series of steps and skills is needed to create emotion in an individual but do we as creators not take the same steps as a sculpture I'm a little confused on how magic is not considered an artform that can be excepted on the same level as music or sculpting. I personally think this nit pick, this and that is what's killing the very existence of acceptance of this artform among the magic community. Just my thoughts..........
 
Jun 4, 2008
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www.wtfnolimits.com
Here is how I define art.

" Art is a deep way of communicating truth, an expression or extension of ones self to the world in which they live, in order to truthfully and magnificently make that which is hidden known"

Magic then becomes a conduit of that hidden self and allows it to become known through visual, intellectual and stimulating ways.

That is how I define magic as an art.
JM
 
Here is how I define art.

" Art is a deep way of communicating truth, an expression or extension of ones self to the world in which they live, in order to truthfully and magnificently make that which is hidden known"

Magic then becomes a conduit of that hidden self and allows it to become known through visual, intellectual and stimulating ways.

That is how I define magic as an art.
JM
Shane and Justin a agree with you both....very well put i may add...
 
Dec 14, 2007
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If its statistics, and not hardcore data forget about it.
With respect naturally,

Silver

Do you understand what are you saying?

Can you tell me the difference between statistics and data (based on your post, I am unclear what you mean)? Specifically, how do you process "data" and what makes some data hardcore and some - apparently - softcore?

Brad
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Do you understand what are you saying?

Can you tell me the difference between statistics and data (based on your post, I am unclear what you mean)? Specifically, how do you process "data" and what makes some data hardcore and some - apparently - softcore?

Brad

Once again a bit of projection going on and miss-communication on my part, facts and statistics is what I am trying to say. I said I didn't want to know statistics, so what do you think hardcore is? I will spell it out for you since you are so inclined to nit pick. I want facts, facts that I can prove to be true or false if I wanted to test them.

As an aside, nowhere did I say that fact and statistic is not data, I wasn't going to say Statistical data and hardcore data, it’s redundant.

You say people have spent money (in my opinion wasting it) in the study of analyzing the problem at hand, which in this topic thread was about Magic downloading. Where is the fruits of their labor are, that is really what wanted from the very beginning. I can’t dismiss findings that I do not know exist, if you are going to say that in your original post (post #59) are the only facts on the subject, then don’t bother because its all opinion. It isn’t hardcore facts, just theory. Just like how Justin made his own casual observations and made his own theory on the subject.

I guess the real problem I have with Mr. Henderson is that you came off as a bit of a belittler in most of your posts.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Once again a bit of projection going on and miss-communication on my part, facts and statistics is what I am trying to say. I said I didn't want to know statistics, so what do you think hardcore is? I will spell it out for you since you are so inclined to nit pick. I want facts, facts that I can prove to be true or false if I wanted to test them.

As an aside, nowhere did I say that fact and statistic is not data, I wasn't going to say Statistical data and hardcore data, it’s redundant.

You say people have spent money (in my opinion wasting it) in the study of analyzing the problem at hand, which in this topic thread was about Magic downloading. Where is the fruits of their labor are, that is really what wanted from the very beginning. I can’t dismiss findings that I do not know exist, if you are going to say that in your original post (post #59) are the only facts on the subject, then don’t bother because its all opinion. It isn’t hardcore facts, just theory. Just like how Justin made his own casual observations and made his own theory on the subject.

I guess the real problem I have with Mr. Henderson is that you came off as a bit of a belittler in most of your posts.

I think you might want to revisit your studies of scientific data and how it is processed. 50% of a carbon monoxide molecule is is oxygen. Statistics ARE facts.

How we INTERPRET them can be subject to debate.

But I think this sums it up:

"I can’t dismiss findings that I do not know exist"

If you choose to live in a cave, you cannot "dismiss" it when others describe a yellowish orb that moves through the sky and gives off heat.

I think this is the first time I have ever seen someone elevate the state of ignorance as a platitude from which to direct one's vision.

Good luck with your life -

May I ask how old you are?

(Just curious.)

Brad
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I think you might want to revisit your studies of scientific data and how it is processed. 50% of a carbon monoxide molecule is is oxygen. Statistics ARE facts.

Just because it has a percent in it does not make it a statistic. Matter can't be created or destroyed. Carbon Monoxide is a molecule and it is known to have only Carbon ions and Oxygen Ions, and can be proven that it is indeed 50 percent is O2. So by default this is a fact for the simple reason that it has been scientifically proven.

Statistical data is collect through trials; and usually can not be proven as truth. You can make a general statemen that may guide you to developing a fact, but it isn't.

How we INTERPRET them can be subject to debate.

I agree perfect example this thread which I suspect is going to be closed soon.

But I think this sums it up:

"I can’t dismiss findings that I do not know exist"

If you choose to live in a cave, you cannot "dismiss" it when others describe a yellowish orb that moves through the sky and gives off heat.

I think this is the first time I have ever seen someone elevate the state of ignorance as a platitude from which to direct one's vision.

Good luck with your life -

May I ask how old you are?

(Just curious.)

Brad

I do in fact live in a cave, its called my wolf layer normies stay out.
First of all I do not see a yellow orb for the better parts of my days, I live in a cave remember?
I am more interested in the big white ball of light that controls my transformations.
Also like your comparison of matter to statistics, I can prove the sun exists. Step outside what do I OBSERVE? I feel heat; its unbearably bright for this shut in, thus I can make the theory that a Big ol star is shining down on me.

"I think this is the first time I have ever seen someone elevate the state of ignorance as a platitude from which to direct one's vision."

I have no idea what you just said, all I could make out was a slight annoying buzz, but that just may be my mild state of psychosis. There is a medication for that right?

Ignorant! I do not think so bud, arrogant? Possibly but who cares about arrogance?
And no I will not give you the satisfaction of giving my age because I feel it is incredibly irrelevant to the topic. Plus I do not know nor trust you to know my age, the phrase “it’s a trap,” Always flies through my ignorant brain when someone over the internet asks me that.

Also here is some math for you, The topic that was stated in the OP= Circle, the subject we are on right now= Tangent x. We are so far off on this tangent from circle 1 I can barely see it anymore so either lock the thread or we shall take this to private messages if you want it to continue.
 
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May 17, 2009
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San Diego, CA
I Can Help If Creators Need It

I've offered to help many creators with this and most ignore me, so I assume they just don't care about there stuff being pirated. I'm a computer security specialist with vast amounts of experience on this. I've worked with a few creators and we've removed about 95% of there pirated material across the entire internet. It would be almost impossible for anyone to find their products on the net for free download. I offered to help Penguin Magic since all their products are available on the net for free download some on legitimate sites, but they said they take care of this. The reality is they just don't know how to find all of these and don't want to deal with it. In a matter of days I'd be able to find every free download on the net for them on every public file-share server. Most companies just take down the few that people report them. The funny thing is I'm not even looking for a job. I'm do quite well in my job and just wanted to help the creators.

I'll throw this offer out there one time only. I am the solution to this problem for creators if they want to protect their product from being made available for free on the internet. If you are a creator and are interested please contact me. i'd love to help.
 
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