Magic Lessons.

[Tadeumagalhaesbg]

So, when we are going to learn an instrument, like drums, for example, we usually go to a teacher, someone who is gonna be with us and work personally and side by side with us. Video classes are also good but they are not the same as having someone watching and helping you with your specific flaws and what not.

With that in mind, how come there are not really magic *schools*, where we can be in touch with a magician and stuff? It's always a download teaching a technique, but is that really enough?

Would you take magic classes??

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Actually, there are mentors and teachers all over the place. A lot of magicians get private lessons from others. It simply isn't advertised as much as a guitar lesson, because very few people would go. But if you go to a local magic ring, some one will probably offer to teach people. I know some people right here on the forums who are mentors to others irl or have mentors irl.

 

[trapeze]

I got my start in magic when I was attending university. Somewhere on campus I stumbled upon a flyer for an evening class on beginning magic offered at the local community college. It turned out that the class was taught by the owner of the magic store in town (pretty coincidental, eh?) and it wasn't much of a teaching experience...the guy would show videos (VCR tapes were a pretty new thing at the time) from Stevens Greater Magic Video Library and then demonstrate a few of the latest tricks from his shop. So kind of a total scam as far as a teaching experience but it did get me interested.

I still remember, those first vids, though. He showed the ones by Daryl, John Carney and Frank Garcia. I became an instant Carney fan. I was too poor as a college student to buy anything very expensive at the time (I remember being super intrigued by a Viking card box) but that was when I bought Tarbell Volume 1.

Good times, good times.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Also, magic lectures are essentially the same thing as a class for magicians, and those happen all the time, all over the place.

 

[Tadeumagalhaesbg]

Also, magic lectures are essentially the same thing as a class for magicians, and those happen all the time, all over the place.

I'm sorry but no. Lecture is not the same as classes. At least not as i'm putting it here. I feel you're having a hard time understanding what i'm talking about, so let me explain it further.

When you learn a language, you have classes twice or 3x per week, the teacher is not only teaching you the pronounciation of the words, but correcting your very own way of saying it and what is wrong with what you're saying... etc... get it? It is VERY different.

 

[RealityOne]

I'm sorry but no. Lecture is not the same as classes. At least not as i'm putting it here.

It depends on the lecture. At a lecture by Aaron Fisher, he walked around the room making sure everyone was doing his nowhere pass correctly. I've been at workshops with folks like Dani DaOrtiz, Jeff McBride, Kainoa Hardbottle / Dan Watkins / Eric Jones and Marc DeSouza where it was true teaching. I think the experience of a lecture live is different than watching it online.

I agree that lectures are not the same as classroom learning or personal instruction. The only classroom learning I know of is when Larry Haas would teach magic as a class at Muhlenberg College. There is a great history of teacher/student mentor/mentee relationships. Vernon, Marlo and Slydini all have well known students and those students have well known students. There also is Tannens' Magic Camp

 

[Tadeumagalhaesbg]

You are still not getting the main point, which is the most important part of the thread: consistency.
I'm talking about taking magic lessons regularly. Not watching a lecture now and then.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Dave Grohl, one of the most legendary rock stars in American history, is self taught.

You don't need lessons. You need persistence.

I've never taken a lesson, though I've attended several lectures. The vast bulk of my magical education has come from books, and having the right people critique my work and my thinking. Well, no. I'd say 50% of my magical education came from that, and the other 50% came from being on stage, performing.

As much as I love theory, nothing compares to doing it live.

 

[Hgagnon]

I would love to take magic lessons. I agree with @ChristoperT that they are not necessary to be able to succeed but it would be cool to have hands on lessons.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

You are still not getting the main point, which is the most important part of the thread: consistency.
I'm talking about taking magic lessons regularly. Not watching a lecture now and then.

There are still people that will teach you regularly. You can find them at local magic rings.

 

[DavidL11229]

Many magic shops offer the types of lessons you are talking about. You can get lessons over Skype too if you can't find anything locally.

Yes it exists, not it is not as common as other types of lessons. It's likely rather easy to find lessons in the cities that are considered magic capitols of the world. Other places there just aren't as many qualified instructors. The local magic shop or meeting should be able to point interested parties in the right direction.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Oh yeah. To be more helpful to the original point -

Unless you happen to be located near a decently active magic club, or a good magic store, both of which are increasingly rare these days, your best bet is online courses. I know Aaron Fisher offers a course, and there are many guys who will do Skype based lessons. A lot of guys that are significant creators will arrange something if you contact them directly, even if they aren't openly offering classes.

 

[Lord Magic]

I personally would prefer no classes.
That's because number one...as it is, in magic you get to learn from people! Whether you watch a video on YT or download an effect from TXI, or study from a book...someone is teaching you.
Second of all, magic is a bit unlike studies, because if you take Physics classes for example, a mnemonic to memorise the Laws of Gravity told to you by the teacher will work for you as well (93% chance). But how you perform tricks and how you don't, depends on the magician, and each magician has their own style!
But music and dancing, where each performer has their own style as well, aren't there classes held? Well...magic is a performance art. And going to classes may help develop the sleights, not performance. And that may produce many sub-par magicians too. You know, people might enrol because they think magic is cool, and then they leave the classes, don't pay attention. But they know the methods right? And THEORITICALLY, they are magicians! Perfect recipe for wannabe hecklers.

Now, maybe the classes encourage students to develop their own style? That is difficult, see...and that's why learning from books develops your performance more than any videos, YT or paid for downloads...because no matter how much of an aspiring magician you are, people have a tendency to copy fromthose whom they learn. So the students will be more inclined to copy the style of the teacher.

No...I support magic clubs more. Like, no teacher...but many magicians, novice or experts together. No payments, but there will be some teaching something, some discussing theories and a few friendly arguments about or against things going on in the community of magic. Will do much more good than classes I feel.
Also, there's the fact that the word 'classes' has a habit of ruining things. Now if you LOVE magic with all your might, and you can fight with people FOR magic, magic is your PASSION, if your trick fails maybe you feel like suiciding...then this won't trouble you. But have you seen how many people are like, "Oh I love singing" and as soon as they join classes, their interest and love lessens? Because the word 'classes' makes it seem like they HAVE to do something, it is kind of a routine thing then. Like, whether you are tired or not, feel like it or not, every Thursday seven in the evening a magic class?!? Hell no!

Then there is the fact of discovery. When you learn something and say, post your performance somewhere, people say it is great, and your audience loves it...won't it feel great to have only yourself and the creators of the effect to credit? Add "teacher'' to this equation and...you dunno how much annoying it is to write "Thanks to Mr. X, without whose help I would have failed" in the Acknowledgement section of all projects!
Also, maybe there is some regional bias involved in my reply too...because the level of magic of the magic classes here...I'd rather become a chef than join those classes (which is saying something seeing I dunno how to make a good cup of tea either, sue me). So if I sound a little too bitter, sorry.

But things like lectures, clubs, mentors, consultors, those are cool! But magic classes, er... not so much. FOR ME that is, other wise I clearly see the other option winning right now.

But if you are talking about Hogwarts, then it is a different matter altogether. I swear I was so sad I did not get the letter when I turned 11.
*hello darkness my old friend*

 

[ChrisJGJ]

I personally would prefer no classes.
That's because number one...as it is, in magic you get to learn from people! Whether you watch a video on YT or download an effect from TXI, or study from a book...someone is teaching you.
Second of all, magic is a bit unlike studies, because if you take Physics classes for example, a mnemonic to memorise the Laws of Gravity told to you by the teacher will work for you as well (93% chance). But how you perform tricks and how you don't, depends on the magician, and each magician has their own style!
But music and dancing, where each performer has their own style as well, aren't there classes held? Well...magic is a performance art. And going to classes may help develop the sleights, not performance. And that may produce many sub-par magicians too. You know, people might enrol because they think magic is cool, and then they leave the classes, don't pay attention. But they know the methods right? And THEORITICALLY, they are magicians! Perfect recipe for wannabe hecklers.

Now, maybe the classes encourage students to develop their own style? That is difficult, see...and that's why learning from books develops your performance more than any videos, YT or paid for downloads...because no matter how much of an aspiring magician you are, people have a tendency to copy fromthose whom they learn. So the students will be more inclined to copy the style of the teacher.

No...I support magic clubs more. Like, no teacher...but many magicians, novice or experts together. No payments, but there will be some teaching something, some discussing theories and a few friendly arguments about or against things going on in the community of magic. Will do much more good than classes I feel.
Also, there's the fact that the word 'classes' has a habit of ruining things. Now if you LOVE magic with all your might, and you can fight with people FOR magic, magic is your PASSION, if your trick fails maybe you feel like suiciding...then this won't trouble you. But have you seen how many people are like, "Oh I love singing" and as soon as they join classes, their interest and love lessens? Because the word 'classes' makes it seem like they HAVE to do something, it is kind of a routine thing then. Like, whether you are tired or not, feel like it or not, every Thursday seven in the evening a magic class?!? Hell no!

Then there is the fact of discovery. When you learn something and say, post your performance somewhere, people say it is great, and your audience loves it...won't it feel great to have only yourself and the creators of the effect to credit? Add "teacher'' to this equation and...you dunno how much annoying it is to write "Thanks to Mr. X, without whose help I would have failed" in the Acknowledgement section of all projects!
Also, maybe there is some regional bias involved in my reply too...because the level of magic of the magic classes here...I'd rather become a chef than join those classes (which is saying something seeing I dunno how to make a good cup of tea either, sue me). So if I sound a little too bitter, sorry.

But things like lectures, clubs, mentors, consultors, those are cool! But magic classes, er... not so much. FOR ME that is, other wise I clearly see the other option winning right now.

But if you are talking about Hogwarts, then it is a different matter altogether. I swear I was so sad I did not get the letter when I turned 11.
*hello darkness my old friend*

Not trying to be rude, but there was a lot said so I made a tl;dr for this guy.

-Would not like classes. Magic is not like physics. Mnemonic for learning law of gravity will work 93 percent of the time, but not magic. How you perform tricks depends on magician.

-Magic classes will help develop sleights, but not performance. This will produce subpar magician. Magician might not pay attention, so they know the sleights and are theoretically magicians. This is the recipe for wannabe hecklers.

-A class on developing style is difficult. People tend to copy their teachers.

-I support free clubs more than paid classes. No teachers. Just many magicians together discussing theory and popular topics in magic.

-Labeling any performance art as a "class" makes the student love the art less.

-It sucks to acknowledge your teacher in the crediting of effects you create.

-Perhaps it is a region thing. The magic classes where I am from suck, so I would rather take a cooking class.

-I am sad I could not attend Hogwarts.

 

[JarrettC2]

Dave Grohl, one of the most legendary rock stars in American history, is self taught.

You don't need lessons. You need persistence.

I've never taken a lesson, though I've attended several lectures. The vast bulk of my magical education has come from books, and having the right people critique my work and my thinking. Well, no. I'd say 50% of my magical education came from that, and the other 50% came from being on stage, performing.

As much as I love theory, nothing compares to doing it live.

Once again sage advice from @ChristopherT . Take all the lessons in the world, all the classes, read all the books and it will mean very little unless you are persistent and practice.

With that in mind is the second aspect. Performing it. You learn the most when doing things live. A simple example: you’re doing a little close up show. It is your first time. You execute your practiced classic force as you were taught but the spectator is stubborn and grabs a different card. Hope you’re good at improv or had a bail out trick.

As with any performance things can and will go wrong (or twist into something better than planned) and you will learn from them.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

This is an interesting discussion. As it turns out, my best teachers have been the laymen I have performed for. I did not expect it, and they did not intend it, but they are the teachers, and the lessons are sometimes painful. Many times, they do not think, act or react the way we expect. It's like WTF?!?! They will say and do things that do not meet our preconceived notions. In this process, we are learning and acquiring the most valuable asset for a magical entertainer - an understanding of human psychology. As we progress and evolve as artists, we can apply this psychology and, to borrow a metaphor from the art of sculpture, "shape the clay."

 

[Lord Magic]

Not trying to be rude, but there was a lot said so I made a tl;dr for this guy.

-Would not like classes. Magic is not like physics. Mnemonic for learning law of gravity will work 93 percent of the time, but not magic. How you perform tricks depends on magician.

-Magic classes will help develop sleights, but not performance. This will produce subpar magician. Magician might not pay attention, so they know the sleights and are theoretically magicians. This is the recipe for wannabe hecklers.

-A class on developing style is difficult. People tend to copy their teachers.

-I support free clubs more than paid classes. No teachers. Just many magicians together discussing theory and popular topics in magic.

-Labeling any performance art as a "class" makes the student love the art less.

-It sucks to acknowledge your teacher in the crediting of effects you create.

-Perhaps it is a region thing. The magic classes where I am from suck, so I would rather take a cooking class.

-I am sad I could not attend Hogwarts.

English summary lessons, one on one, right here XD

Also, you've made sure people will get a wrong idea of what I say, because admittedly my post was extremely wrong and prolly boring, that was because I took time to explain my views, whether someone things it is too long, that's not my problem bruh...
It's just that your summary kind of makes my idea seem quite wrong

 

[ChrisJGJ]

English summary lessons, one on one, right here XD

Also, you've made sure people will get a wrong idea of what I say, because admittedly my post was extremely wrong and prolly boring, that was because I took time to explain my views, whether someone things it is too long, that's not my problem bruh...
It's just that your summary kind of makes my idea seem quite wrong

I don't think an opinion can be wrong. I can disagree, but that doesn't make it wrong. I think you said some interesting things that might generate a discussion, so I summarized it a bit so people could more easily digest it. I looked into your "explanations" as I summarized it. I don't think I left anything important out.

 

[trapeze]

Here's an opinion:

You can be a singer without formal lessons.
You can be a dancer without formal lessons.
You can be a guitarist without formal lessons.

However, it is unlikely that you will become a very good singer, dancer or guitarist without formal lessons. And it is virtually impossible to be a world class artist in these areas without formal lessons. And it is also unlikely or impossible to become a physicist without formal lessons in math and physics.

Unless you are a prodigy.

Like, say, Albert Einstein, who received absolutely no formal training in mathematics or physics. Umm...except that he did.

Now, that said, magic and comedy are two arts where there are little to no formal educational experiences available. It's sort of obvious why that is so with comedy...it literally can't be taught. You either get it or you don't. There are quite a few clown schools, though...go figure.

Perhaps the absence of formal training in magic is due to a lack of qualified magicians willing to teach. And teaching, in and of itself, is a skill (a gift, really) that a lot of qualified practitioners of a given craft simply do not possess at all or can't perform very well.

I, personally, would gladly spend one or two hours a week learning from an expert in magic if such an opportunity were available. I would gladly pay through the nose for the opportunity to be regularly schooled by a Dai Vernon, a Tony Slydini, David Roth, Paul Harris, John Carney or any number of world class magic practitioners. Now, such a scenario is (obviously) an extreme exaggeration. But the point is that if I had the opportunity to take lessons from any (teaching) magician who knew significantly more than I know, had significantly more experience than I do, etc. I would jump at the chance.

Some say that they wouldn't. Okay. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

A good teacher would teach the skills and then encourage development of a particular style. I'm considering doing a stage hypnosis training course and one of the main selling points for me is that the instructor will do one on one video chat sessions to help his students develop a full show, and will work with whatever ideas they have for a routine.

It's sort of obvious why that is so with comedy...it literally can't be taught.

Yes it can. I just think it hasn't been codified specifically as "Here's how to do comedy". Comedy is, essentially, story telling and story telling can definitely be taught (You can even major in it at various colleges).

Comedy, like creativity and talent, is misunderstood. They are all skills that can be developed and honed over time. I know I have gotten dramatically more funny since I had a chat with a stand up comedian who gave me some in's and out's of comedy, and then a few tips I've seen online.

The problem you're going to have when it comes to magic lessons is that there are -very- few top end guys who give lessons. Why would they? Doing lessons means they can't do gigs at that time, and I guarantee those gigs are going to make them more money than lessons. I'm considering taking an online based course from a hypnotist who gets thousands per gig - he's comfortable enough now that he can dedicate time to teaching others and he wants to improve the quality of shows out there.

So yes, if you want to be a world class athlete or musician you'll probably need lessons - but that also requires world class instructors. Magic has a bit of a lack of that. So you'll learn the skills from a decent teacher, then go on and hone them and your performance on your own and in performances.

Personally, I prefer learning on my own. Kind of stubborn like that, I guess.