Move Your Feet

[Cedric Taylor]

I have seen a lot and heard a lot of bad things that goes on within the magic community. I've kept quiet for years, to keep from stepping on the toes of the well respected ones in this business. That was until yesterday. I was on one of my favorite networking sites, and a well respected magician posted a status that rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not going to call any names or genders, but to tell people who admire you to not contact you about the advancement of the art of their magic, is really eyebrow raising.

As a added kicker, there were about 20 something or more magician/creators who agreed. Most of them on this site. Yet they can say they are here for the advancement in the art of magic??? Who are you trying to sell that company line to??? I'm Just curious. If our artform is in the hand of these egotistical characters, we are in trouble people. We as magicians need to wake up and realize that the artform would never grow if we don't give back and help out the ones that's trying to be where we are. I think most,(not all of you guys, just a lot of you) needs to realize that without spectators and people who take a interest in what you have to offer, you would be nothing in this business. We as magicians should all have ego, but have enough of it to realize that we are not magic alone. It takes a community to make this artful a success and thats the way its going to be forever.

There are exceptions. You all know who you are. But I want to focus on one because its really what the forums and the advancement are about. Lee Asher is a grand exception. I'll tell anyone, everything i know about this business, he's been there to critique me to the fullest. When i'm wrong he'll correct me. When my ideas or stupid, he'll let me know. However, through it all, he's a consummate professional. He doesn't baby you or sugarcoat anything, but you can tell that what he says in his videos and at conferences, he actually believes in. There are more. He's one that i've had the personal experience in my growth of magic. I've said it once and i'll say it again.

This site, This business needs more Lee Ashers....

 

[Efa>D]

I have not seen this... but...

Growth in magic has two meanings, either creating new effects, or advancing upon the old ones. My personal favorite are the advancements on stage, but on the street or close-up, an entirely new trick. Most of the people complaining about magic growing are probably the older people in magic. Magic has gotten changed dramatically, and I think they are not expecting as many to be able to watch. On stage, you are performing for hundreds if not thousands of people at a time... but on the street, you are maybe performing to about 5 people at a time usually. The thing a lot of people have against the types of magic outside of stage like street magic is that it would take much longer to entertain the same amount of people from a stage show. The only thing is though, you will leave them with a longer lasting impression. Very few magicians can leave a true impact on stage, one of the few are Derren Brown. He works with the old, but adds interesting new features to make it much more pure, impossible, and entertaining.
The other thing that I have noticed is that most new tricks are performed or revealed poorly on the internet right away. All of my products are held underground in the magic community, so it is much harder for people to get at them, which means that Youtube junkies wont be revealing my tricks any time soon. I think unless your video is advertising a product trick, you should try and get more than just one trick per video. Any new trick out there will give magicians a high of performing it, and then it goes into their closet and collects dust. New magicians even usually create something that is very easy to do which doesnt seem all that great and then they sell it. I work on all of my tricks intensly for at least a month before I make any of them even remotely available. I try and figure out the psychology of it all, which can take some time.
Growing magic is not bad at all, you just have to find the right type of seed, soil, and nutrients.

 

[cm763]

We need more Lee Ashers? The same Lee Asher who oversells Jerry's Nuggets, and says he's doing it as a "favour" (guaranteed not a fake) to the magic/cardistry community? Heh.

Not saying he's a bad person. He's a great business person (as are most of the T11 artists, E's employees, etc). I would just personally hesitate making a judgment call (whether bad or good) on somebody I don't know personally (that's just how I roll, non judgmentally).

Either way, I'm not surprised that someone both has a large ego, and doesn't appreciate those who make them a "celebrity" (even if it's within the magic realm). Kind of surprised they'd say so publicly, though.

 

[William Draven]

Hmm.. I really can't comment more on this subject other than "I think those of us who are successful owe our success to those who gave us the opportunity to succeed. In the same notion we also owe it to the next generation to allow the same opportunities where we are able to provide them. To turn our back on the ones who have the desire, hunger, and drive to succeed is to do a grave disservice to our community."

I'm afraid without knowing the people involved, the comments they were replying to, the nature of the situation, or their own words I can't get any more involved than that.

 

[Spade444]

Hmm.. I really can't comment more on this subject other than "I think those of us who are successful owe our success to those who gave us the opportunity to succeed. In the same notion we also owe it to the next generation to allow the same opportunities where we are able to provide them. To turn our back on the ones who have the desire, hunger, and drive to succeed is to do a grave disservice to our community."

I'm afraid without knowing the people involved, the comments they were replying to, the nature of the situation, or their own words I can't get any more involved than that.

I think i know who they are talking about, im on the same social networking site...cough..cough.facebook..cough...

 

[Spade444]

Hmm.. I really can't comment more on this subject other than "I think those of us who are successful owe our success to those who gave us the opportunity to succeed. In the same notion we also owe it to the next generation to allow the same opportunities where we are able to provide them. To turn our back on the ones who have the desire, hunger, and drive to succeed is to do a grave disservice to our community."

I'm afraid without knowing the people involved, the comments they were replying to, the nature of the situation, or their own words I can't get any more involved than that.

I think i know who it is.....
i was surprised as well....

I saw them on the "networking site" cough...cough..facebook...cough

 

[penguincdude]

Honestly I think some people take themselves a bit too seriously here. Why do you need to revolutionize magic? Why can't you just share magic, ask for advice, share stories, etc.

 

[Chris W]

If I'm assuming correctly, and I could be completely wrong, I understand and enjoyed reading that blog post/article. I don't think its much of an ego thing, but more as a lose lose situation for those in the position.

 

[Liderc]

i have no idea who were talking about

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I'd like to read this, if it's an article.

 

[scarecrow1]

I'd like to read this, if it's an article.

I agree with Christopher. Could someone put up a link if it's an article or whatever it happens to be? Thanks.

Cheers

 

[James Smith]

Why do we have to worry about the politics of the magic community? Why can't we get out there and do some freakin' tricks? There are, have been, and always will be much worse things going on in the world then a magician being a jerk.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Actually I'm not so concered with the politics as I want to know what someone is saying with that particular heading.

I say everyone has a choice of whether they want to share their knowledge. If they do, great. If not, okay. Personally, I have no problem helping fellow magicians, but I only do so if I think they are actually serious about the art.

 

[scarecrow1]

DaveyG, it's more out of curiosity really. I don't care about the politics of magic much at all, but I'm just curious as to what the article said.


Cheers

 

[Efa>D]

The way I see it, let the people do what they want, just so long as people are working with magic and entertaining others, there really is no problem with growth or change. Magic is magic, there really is not much of a growth of the actual term magic, more of a growth in the amount of tricks. As new tricks are created, old ones are lost, so it is pretty much a tradeoff, not really a growth.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

My reason

I chose not to list the party or parties involved for a number of reasons:

1. I didn't want to come off as a total bashing for those individuals

2. If everyone knew who was invovled, being that these people are so respected, they would then choose sides based on their thoughts on the artists and based on the thoughts of me. That wouldn't allow me to have unbiased opinions from you all. Just know the problem, not who it came from.

3. This is just an eye opener for the community as a whole, including the artists invovled. Lets come together guys, and not stay seperate.

4.I'm not an *******.

This was intened to be a wake up call for us all. I love all these guys to death, I love all of you. We share a common bond for a common purpose and thats the type of comradery we need to build upon. I think "Efa"and "Penguincdude" said it best in his previous post about us sharing, and being as one and growing in magic.

And no, its not an article, it was a spur of the moment status posted on a networking site. Therefore the names will not be revealed. It was just a shock to see something like that. Its like finding out that your parent is a serial killer, or your favorite athlete used steriods.

I can't speak for the rest of you, but I have grown as a person by listening to theory and logic based on most of these people involved. So to me, its like a parent letting you down, because i think highly (even over my actual parents advice) in what these people say.

 

[cm763]

I'm not going to call any names or genders, but to tell people who admire you to not contact you about the advancement of the art of their magic, is really eyebrow raising.

Having just read what the person posted, you have completely misrepresented what he said. He did not say he does not want to help anyone advance the art. Not even close. In fact, it was the exact opposite.

The exact line was:

"Don't ask if you can't handle the Effing answer. If you want to hear how great you are don't ask me to look at your trick."

Translation: If you want him to look at your trick, you better be prepared to take some criticism, because it will be far from perfect, especially to the eyes of a professional. And he isn't afraid to tell you the truth, because if you're willing to ask him to see his trick, he will give you constructive criticism to help you further yourself.

I see this problem here on the forums all the time. People love posting their stuff, others will comment about how great it is, I've even seen some say they don't want to post anything negative because it's their first time, or because they really liked it overall (which apparently means every piece of it was perfect?). And people really do have a difficult time taking any sort of constructive criticism (there was a certain member who used to be on these forums, wanted to be the next Criss Angel (literally...copied EVERYTHING about him), who NEVER took advice)...and those that do, rarely actually incorporate the advice given to them (i.e., don't improve). It's a ridiculous problem on the forums, and apparently in real life around the particular professional in question. I'm not saying everyone is at fault here, but there are far too many who fall under this category.

I'm surprised anyone is disagreeing with the person who said this, as that person is trying to advance our art, especially by bringing the issue to light.

Edit: Regardless of what was said, this was just uncalled for:

Its like finding out that your parent is a serial killer

Are you kidding me?! I can't even respond to that, it's just so far beyond ridiculous.

 

[Nikki]

Yup, ^^and there was an article attatched with that status update. I must say i agree with him 100%. I think Ced jus misinterpreted it

Heres the article, if anyone wants to read it:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/09/i_will_not_read.php

 

[Brad Henderson]

Chris Kenner published his post and has spoken about it publicly, specifically at Magic Live. It is part of the published record, and play coy only serves to inflate this into something much bigger than it is.

Many people do not want to know what someone really thinks. What they want is approval.

Consequently, many people in our field are reluctant to share opinions on someone's work even when asked. And when they are asked, they often feel it necessary to make sure that the person asking REALLY wants their honest opinion.

You have no idea how many times people don't even listen. They ask, and then start defending everything they are doing, or saying, "well, normally I would do it this way."

And this is why magic stops growing. This notion of "brotherhood" paralyzes us into a condition of stagnation.

If you want to grow in magic, then you need to learn to see how your material (and that includes character, delivery, costuming, EVERYTHING) is perceived by those looking at it. And when they tell you, you have to realize that it's what they saw - whether it was good, bad, or indifferent.

This requires feedback from others - honest feedback.

But are we really willing to accept that feedback? Are we willing to process that feedback? Are we willing to use that not as a condemnation, not as an attack, but as an opportunity to change and grow?

People like Chris are constantly asked to watch things and then offer their opinion. Imagine if you were asked to watch 10 people's work EVERY DAY, and then, after you took the time out of your life to view it, think about it, and deliver it in a cogent manner - were met with anger, disrespect, and dismissal?

Would this serve to encourage you to "help" more people, or would you come to realize that people are not looking for honesty, they are not looking for growth, they are looking for pats on the back and affirmations they are next next coming of Houdin?

But here's the thing. That's not the kind of guy Chris is.

Chris WILL look at your work.
Chris WILL think about it.
Chris WILL deliver his analysis in a cogent fashion.

BUT

Chris WILL be honest - because he cares about magic, and (at the risk of sounding saccharine) he cares about YOU.

The question is: Do you care about magic, do you care about YOUR magic enough to promise to listen when you choose to ask what he has to say?

 

[Cedric Taylor]

Yup, ^^and there was an article attatched with that status update. I must say i agree with him 100%. I think Ced jus misinterpreted it

Heres the article, if anyone wants to read it:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/09/i_will_not_read.php

Yeah after clearing my head on going over the entire thing, They are right. I have even messaged The guy himself with a formal apology. I'm a grown man, and i overreacted to the post. I was a complete and total ass about everything. Real people admit there mistakes and i'm the first one to say that i have lead you all onto a false accusation of mine. I regret being so childish and not gathering all the facts. Therefore disregard everything i said, and i apologize to all of you for being so unprofessional and out of character.

I think this marks the end of this thread.