Mshade's Quote of the Week

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Mshade

Sep 2, 2007
22
0
This is an experiment and I'll see how successful it is. I'll post a quote that relates to magic every week and we can discuss it. So for Week #1.

"Everything that deceives may be said to enchant." - Plato

Now I'm not to sure if Plato ever saw magic but he knew a lot about wonder. Wonder is what gets guys like Plato into philosophy and people like us into magic. Thankfully, I'm into both.

What Plato is trying to say is that every single deception on earth has a can be used for good and we should make the purpose of decieving a noble one. You can either use that deception for good or bad. Although it is tempting to use sleight of hand to unfairly stack the odds in your favor in a card game or just swindle someone with the 3 card monte we can also use our deception to enchant.

The actual meaning of enchant is:
1. to subject to magical influence
2. to delight to a high degree
3. to impart a magic quality or effect to

All these things are possible in magic. The world is full of deceptions. It's also filled with tons of people who have their own stories about their lives. Do you want to be remembered as a swindler and ruin people's days or do you want to bring enchantment into people's live and brighten up what might possible be a horrible day for someone. How will you use your powers of deception?
 
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Brewery Rabbit

Brewery Rabbit

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
931
6
33
Poulsbo, Wa
Mshade said:
This is an experiment and I'll see how successful it is. I'll post a quote that relates to magic every week and we can discuss it. So for Week #1.

"Everything that deceives may be said to enchant." - Plato

Now I'm not to sure if Plato ever saw magic but he knew a lot about wonder. Wonder is what gets guys like Plato into philosophy and people like us into magic. Thankfully, I'm into both.

What Plato is trying to say is that every single deception on earth has a purpose. You can either use that deception for good or bad. Although it is tempting to use sleight of hand to unfairly stack the odds in your favor in a card game or just swindle someone with the 3 card monte we can also use our deception to enchant.

The actual meaning of enchant is:
1. to subject to magical influence
2. to delight to a high degree
3. to impart a magic quality or effect to

All these things are possible in magic. The world is full of deceptions. It's also filled with tons of people who have their own stories about their lives. Do you want to be remembered as a swindler and ruin people's days or do you want to bring enchantment into people's live and brighten up what might possible be a horrible day for someone. How will you use your powers of deception?
Click to expand...

Oh wow, That was one of the best things i have read in a long time.
*I unfortunatly ran out of questions because i am not a creative genius, so my question of the week thing died =P*

Good job man, good job.
 
S

Shodan

Sep 1, 2007
662
2
Mshade said:
What Plato is trying to say is that every single deception on earth has a purpose.
Click to expand...

I don't think Plato was "trying" to say that at all. Deception = enchantment...no hint at purpose.

I also think it's a load of old fish-socks. There are many deceptions which could not be described as enchanting, for instance...the deception of a husband having a secret affair. Where's the delight or magic in that?

I may not know much about philosophy (see the fish socks comment above) but in terms of logical deduction, one counter example constitutes a disproof of the theorem in question.
 
M

Mshade

Sep 2, 2007
22
0
Shodan said:
I don't think Plato was "trying" to say that at all. Deception = enchantment...no hint at purpose.

I also think it's a load of old fish-socks. There are many deceptions which could not be described as enchanting, for instance...the deception of a husband having a secret affair. Where's the delight or magic in that?

I may not know much about philosophy (see the fish socks comment above) but in terms of logical deduction, one counter example constitutes a disproof of the theorem in question.
Click to expand...

If someone is able to successfully have an affair without being caught then they must be good at deceiving. Except for they are using that skill in a bad way instead of using it constructively. The deception involved with cheating (lying, making aliases) could be used productively if the man in question where planning a surprise vacation for his wife for example. Every deceptive person has the potential to use deception for good or bad.

P.S. The purpose in every deception should be postitive. I'm not saying that all deceptions have a good purpose if each person would use that deception properly the world would be a better place. I don't want to get into good vs. evil and the subject of free will but I think what Plato was trying to get us to understand is that deception can also be used for good. Sorry if my wording mislead you, I did not mean to say that all deception had a purpose, I'm just saying our purpose should be a noble one.
 
S

Shodan

Sep 1, 2007
662
2
And nowhere do we find the original point about enchantment! Theorem in question:

Everything that decieves may be said to enchant.

It is easy to come up with any number of counter-examples to this statement, hence it is untrue - because even one will do!

What is the point in trying to draw meaning from an obvious fallacy?

Just because Plato said some interesting stuff doesn't mean that everything he said was interesting.
 
M

Mshade

Sep 2, 2007
22
0
Shodan said:
And nowhere do we find the original point about enchantment! Theorem in question:

Everything that decieves may be said to enchant.

It is easy to come up with any number of counter-examples to this statement, hence it is untrue - because even one will do!

What is the point in trying to draw meaning from an obvious fallacy?

Just because Plato said some interesting stuff doesn't mean that everything he said was interesting.
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point. Not every deception may be said to enchant but "Everything" that decieves may be said to enchant. Everything in this context means the person or item, not an actual scenario. And it is true, everyone or anything is capable of enchantment with proper intruction and method. It's not a fallacy if you look at it correctly... instead of trying to argue the meaning, which I enjoy by the way, you should think beyond the wording and into applications.

P.S. I find everything Plato and everybody else on earth says because everyone comes from their own walk of life and the only way to learn more than you can from experience is to learn from other people's experience so you should never undermine or ignore what someone is saying. Because even if it doesn't make sense, try to figure out what was going on in their mind. Reading, seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting is our perceptions of what is happening and that is only half the party, the other half we must bring to the party from our imagination.
 
S

Shodan

Sep 1, 2007
662
2
Your interpretation would make sense if the wording was different:

"Everything that decieves has the capacity to enchant"

Meaning that anything with the ability to decieve can use that ability to enchant...which is what you're writing about.

However, that is definitely NOT what the quote says! "Can be said to" is a very strong logical connector - literally: "implies". Examples:

"All numbers can be said to be odd" - No. Just because some numbers are odd...doesn't mean that you can make the above statement.

"Everything with stripes can be said to be a tiger" - Also, obviously, no.
"Everything with stripes COULD BE a tiger" - allows room for the other possibilities.

You might think I'm being pedantic, arguing a "small point" like this, and maybe you're right about Plato's true meaning. However, you are trying to impart a lesson based on YES, a fallacy (look at it correctly? How very patronising!), which I consider nonsensical, and in ways, unethical.

You may want to consider the possibility that Plato was bright enough to write what what he actually meant, instead of hoping that someone (you?) would come along and say "oh no, what Plato meant to say was..."

I suspect the quote has been taken out of context, or that Mr. Plato was just high that day. "May be said to" simply doesn't make sense (half the word count of the quote nevermind!). I'm sure you could find other quotes to support your point..quotes which ACTUALLY support your point, because your point, has a point. Deception has a purpose and it's up to us, as decievers, to decide how to direct that purpose. Great, nothing wrong with it. But I don't think Plato would see the relevance to his quote.
 
M

Mshade

Sep 2, 2007
22
0
Shodan said:
Your interpretation would make sense if the wording was different:

"Everything that decieves has the capacity to enchant"

Meaning that anything with the ability to decieve can use that ability to enchant...which is what you're writing about.

However, that is definitely NOT what the quote says! "Can be said to" is a very strong logical connector - literally: "implies". Examples:

"All numbers can be said to be odd" - No. Just because some numbers are odd...doesn't mean that you can make the above statement.

"Everything with stripes can be said to be a tiger" - Also, obviously, no.
"Everything with stripes COULD BE a tiger" - allows room for the other possibilities.

You might think I'm being pedantic, arguing a "small point" like this, and maybe you're right about Plato's true meaning. However, you are trying to impart a lesson based on YES, a fallacy (look at it correctly? How very patronising!), which I consider nonsensical, and in ways, unethical.

You may want to consider the possibility that Plato was bright enough to write what what he actually meant, instead of hoping that someone (you?) would come along and say "oh no, what Plato meant to say was..."

I suspect the quote has been taken out of context, or that Mr. Plato was just high that day. "May be said to" simply doesn't make sense (half the word count of the quote nevermind!). I'm sure you could find other quotes to support your point..quotes which ACTUALLY support your point, because your point, has a point. Deception has a purpose and it's up to us, as decievers, to decide how to direct that purpose. Great, nothing wrong with it. But I don't think Plato would see the relevance to his quote.
Click to expand...

First of all the quote is a translation of Greek text because Plato lived in ancient Greece. The dialect they used back then is quite different from the one they use in Greece now, plus Greece had many city-states with different dialects. The quotation I put is an english translation of what he said in greek. So this makes up for why it does not make sense to you and I'm sorry for all the confusion. And I believe Plato would see the relevance of this quote because although he was very honest he also understood deception and it's different purposes.
 
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Shodan

Sep 1, 2007
662
2
The phrase "lost in translation" would appear to be relevant here. Although if the meaning has changed that much through the ages, one wonders what they point behind this whole discussion is.

I seem to recall that on reading the Republic, everything made sense...
 
M

Mshade

Sep 2, 2007
22
0
Shodan said:
The phrase "lost in translation" would appear to be relevant here. Although if the meaning has changed that much through the ages, one wonders what they point behind this whole discussion is.

I seem to recall that on reading the Republic, everything made sense...
Click to expand...

Well the whole point of the discussion was to discuss how we could turn harmful deception into enchantful deception. I did not intend for the thread to be a debate on the validity of the quote to be quite honest.
 
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