Note to Paul + theory11...

[SHANE BLACK]

So I was having a converstaion with Paul Vigil on the topic of respect to fellow artist and performers where he reminded me of a time here on Theory11 where I disrespected him by quickly jumping the gun to the price point he stamped on one of his effects.

I felt the price was an attempt to segregate the community and those that could not afford the effect would be left without any opportunity to learn this great effect and promoted piracy.

During the conversation I used the word "idiot" which in turn I completley forgot about and I think back now about how naive I was to the business of selling magic and I may have jumped the gun quickly to judge and I want to apoligize to Paul and the T11 staff for not taking the time to do my homework on the subject before speaking out of turn.

So to Paul who I have much respect for and the T11 staff I apoligize even I make mistakes.

PS. The effect is called "HCE".
Shane

 

[Luis Vega]

what effect are you talking about? I would like to check it out...

I feel sometimes the price for an effect it`s fair, since the creators value their work and they wouldn`t like that a magician who is no so serious about magic couldn`t get it like an ice-cream...

a good performer understand that in order to be the best, sacrifices must be made..

 

[SHANE BLACK]

what effect are you talking about? I would like to check it out...

I feel sometimes the price for an effect it`s fair, since the creators value their work and they wouldn`t like that a magician who is no so serious about magic couldn`t get it like an ice-cream...

a good performer understand that in order to be the best, sacrifices must be made..

The effect is called "HCE" I edited my original post with a link. I tried to hunt down the original post here but no luck.

Shane

 

[Robert//Livingston]

Shane - Have you bought/used this effect?

Seriously, it sounds astounding. The price tag is pretty hefty, but it sounds like it's worth it in my opinion.

It's not everyday we stumble across real magic.

 

[Brad Henderson]

I felt the price was an attempt to segregate the community and those that could not afford the effect would be left without any opportunity to learn this great effect and promoted piracy. Shane

Why should everyone be entitled to learn every effect in existence? Shouldn't a creator get to determine how his work is used - and by whom? If we all did the same material, how would magic as an art be served?

 

[Mr.MadMan]

Let me give you guys a perspective on how good this is.

If you were a little boy in Africa and you hadnt had a drink for 2 days and you finally get a sip. Thats how good it is!

And Shane, i'm not sure what the idea of the pricetag for it is but mostly these pricetags are thrown on due to them being "Professional" items. Meaning that keeping away little youtube exposers also this is a full blown 30 minute performance piece. I mean, this is a tested, full blown, self made, 30 minute routine that has every single detail finessed to perfection.

Ive figured out that there are 3 forms of mentalism products.

* Cheap and available but they need your own touch and work.(everything needs but these are just unusable in their original form)

*These 100$-tens of thousands costing effects that are the work of total madmen.

*Old manuscripts that might cost thousands or might cost a few cents in a garage sale. (i particulary love these, old books and manuscripts are invaluable)


M.

PS. I don't have this, i don't make that much yet. But from what i've heard, this is good.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Why should everyone be entitled to learn every effect in existence? Shouldn't a creator get to determine how his work is used - and by whom? If we all did the same material, how would magic as an art be served?

Like I previously stated I was naive at that point of my career I felt it was the only right to clear that up with Paul and the T11 community.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Understood. I did not know if you still held those beliefs or were just apologizing to Paul for the way you handled the conversation. Many people hold that belie, but ultimately I do not feel it holds up to scrutiny. I was interested in hearing your perspective on it - which clearly has changed.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Understood. I did not know if you still held those beliefs or were just apologizing to Paul for the way you handled the conversation. Many people hold that belie, but ultimately I do not feel it holds up to scrutiny. I was interested in hearing your perspective on it - which clearly has changed.

No worries I get that now.

 

[Justin.Morris]

There was a recent article about Paul, and he mentioned that a friend offered him $1000 to learn this effect and that's how the price was set.

He's a neat guy who very much respects the art.

 

[Jacob]

To all the people who say this is worth it. How? How would spending $1000 on a card effect be even remotely worth it. Seriously.

 

[Mike.Hankins]

To all the people who say this is worth it. How? How would spending $1000 on a card effect be even remotely worth it. Seriously.

Easy...one reason:

If you perform magic for a living or are semi-pro, you just bought yourself a $1000 tax write off...

That's just one reason.

 

[Jacob]

Easy...one reason:

If you perform magic for a living or are semi-pro, you just bought yourself a $1000 tax write off...

That's just one reason.

Ahaa. Never thought of that.
I guess this

 

[Robert//Livingston]

Also, if I bought it I would know 99% of other magicians would not.

The tax write off is nice, but the investment in an effect that will make you a reputation is even better.

If I had an effect for sale which description read "Spectator takes deck and picks out any card, remembers it and shuffles it back in. With your back turned around you correctly name their card 100% of the time." I would buy that, no doubt.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Easy...one reason:

If you perform magic for a living or are semi-pro, you just bought yourself a $1000 tax write off...

That's just one reason.

Touche'

Shane

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

To all the people who say this is worth it. How? How would spending $1000 on a card effect be even remotely worth it. Seriously.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this.

First off, I get the impression you're thinking of this as a 'card trick.' Ignore the fact that it uses cards. Those are just the props through which the magic is transmitted. Second, keep in mind that a high price tag basically eliminates the YouTube peons from exposing it. Third, tax break as Hankins said. Fourth, when was the last time an effect actually seemed magical to you? Fifth, there was a time when a magical secret could only be learned directly from its creator. That might mean traveling across the world and devoting years to being an 'assistant' to said creator. $1,000 isn't really that much, in comparison. Sixth ... ah, you know what? Screw it. I'm going back to my wine.

 

[Mat La Vore]

This is something Garrett Thomas has talked about in his lectures--knowing yourself as a performer and your style of magic so well you know right away when an effect will work for you and when it won't.

I don't know right away all the time, but I'd say about 90% of the time I do now. It took a year or two of buying every cool thing I saw and instantly liked, and learning my lesson the hard way, but eventually I figured it out. And when you do see an effect you know you like and will fit your style, and you've done your research and know it fits your criteria for you as a perfomer, the price isn't as big of an issue as it at first may have seemed. I dropped $500 for a Quantum Bender 2.0 and it is--without a doubt--the best investment I ever made in a close-up magic gimmick. I've literally used it every day for years now. I recently just bought $250 in Twilight Angels cards because I know that's an effect I want to perform the rest of my life. I also just spent over $750 on a Linking Finger Rings routine, because I know it's going to be a staple in my stand-up show for years to come. And I am very happy with all of those high-priced purchases.

If the effect fits the magician, the price is justified. Are some effects overpriced in comparison to their value though? Absolutely! But that's why you do your research. And if you do it right, when you get your new piece in the mail, it's exactly what you expected when you made the decision to make your purchase, and the value of the effect to you as a performer is equatable with the price you paid for it.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

So I was having a converstaion with Paul Vigil on the topic of respect to fellow artist and performers where he reminded me of a time here on Theory11 where I disrespected him by quickly jumping the gun to the price point he stamped on one of his effects.

I felt the price was an attempt to segregate the community and those that could not afford the effect would be left without any opportunity to learn this great effect and promoted piracy.

During the conversation I used the word "idiot" which in turn I completley forgot about and I think back now about how naive I was to the business of selling magic and I may have jumped the gun quickly to judge and I want to apoligize to Paul and the T11 staff for not taking the time to do my homework on the subject before speaking out of turn.

So to Paul who I have much respect for and the T11 staff I apoligize even I make mistakes.

PS. The effect is called "HCE".
Shane

no disrepsect to anyone(shane, paul, or T11)...i might be as naive as you stated u were, but for $1000, this effect better create sellout crowds alone by itself...

 

[Brad Henderson]

Seems to me any effect actually worth performing for paying audiences would be worth at LEAST a grand, if not more.

I feel lucky to find a trick worth doing these days. I might have to go through 10 or 15 books before I find an idea that is right for me.

Factor in the cost of those books with the time required for research and a thousand bucks is a bargain.

Now, if you want to spend your life doing the same five tricks for your friends that every other magician with internet access can buy, then yes - anything more than what the going one trick dvd rate may be high. (Though, most of the items being released today have not been tested and reworked through thousands of professional performances - they are ideas someone filmed within weeks of coming up with them. That's why so many require special users forums where people actually solve the problems the 'creator' should have considered YEARS before filming his first street demo.)

Now if your goal is to be a magician, someone whose personality and material set them apart, who travels the world with their act then this is a miniscule investment to make.

Comedians will pay a writer several hundred dollars for a single joke.

A 20 minute act that has been honed in the fires of performance, ready to be adapted to one's own style is almost priceless.

 

[descartes]

To all the people who say this is worth it. How? How would spending $1000 on a card effect be even remotely worth it. Seriously.

When someone well known and respected like Paul Vigil sets a price of $1000 for a trick, you have to assume that he knows fully well that it will drive away your average magic consumer. He is essentially going out on a limb and saying that it will be worth it to the few who even consider buying this. He only needs to satisfy 100 customers to earn a cool $100,000. The remaining multitudes of amateur magicians don't really enter the equation.

Obviously, some people out there have bought the trick and felt they got their money's worth. You will have to ask them personally if they felt the trick was worth it.

As others have mentioned, this kind of pricing ensures that the trick gets circulated only among a select few who are serious about performing magic and not your average youtube dilettante. Paul Vigil probably thinks thats a good thing.