On going Ellusionist/Theory11 comparisons

[senchi]

While browsing the forum for interesting topics I constantly come across people spiting on Elussionist. The Theory 11 is a savor of the art, the Elussionist is the opposite.
To me, they are basically the same. First of all, they both want to earn money by selling tricks, moves and custom decks. Thats the prime ambition, forget about the progressing of the art. That is not to say that they do not deliver quality content, because they do.
I feel however that Elussionist is wrongfully attacked. Why? Because it has less "names" in magic?? Elussionist is dedicated to street magic and they offer capable learning tools for the interested. They don´t release new stuff so often which to me means that they have considerations about the quality of what they put out. That Brad Christian guy seems sincere and passionate about magic. He also seems to be a good teacher. The Elussionist have found their niche before Theory11 which earns them some credit.

I wish the members of this community to be critical and analyzing individuals that do not consume everything that is served to the table. And about the "progressing the art" cliche?.. Only thing I see here is people performing the same looking flourishing, with the same looking black and white editing, with the same type of music and with personalitys belonging to one of the twins

 

[darosa.justin]

There indeed have been many topics on this as you have...

I guess the main point that people (incl. myself) are trying to say...is that since the start-up of t11, Ellusionist have gone away from the 'underground magic' type of image to the full-on advertised, TV sponsored, buy 1 get one free type of business.

We all know it all comes down to business in the end, but I guess the main reason for bashing is because Ellusionist has let the secrecy go in an attempt to make money.

BUt if you go through the other topics, you'll see hundred or arguments...take aa look at those.

 

[JDENredden]

While browsing the forum for interesting topics I constantly come across people spiting on Elussionist. The Theory 11 is a savor of the art, the Elussionist is the opposite.
To me, they are basically the same. First of all, they both want to earn money by selling tricks, moves and custom decks. Thats the prime ambition, forget about the progressing of the art. That is not to say that they do not deliver quality content, because they do.
I feel however that Elussionist is wrongfully attacked. Why? Because it has less "names" in magic?? Elussionist is dedicated to street magic and they offer capable learning tools for the interested. They don´t release new stuff so often which to me means that they have considerations about the quality of what they put out. That Brad Christian guy seems sincere and passionate about magic. He also seems to be a good teacher. The Elussionist have found their niche before Theory11 which earns them some credit.

I wish the members of this community to be critical and analyzing individuals that do not consume everything that is served to the table. And about the "progressing the art" cliche?.. Only thing I see here is people performing the same looking flourishing, with the same looking black and white editing, with the same type of music and with personalitys belonging to one of the twins

I totally agree. Just becouse they gone compercial dosent mean we have to bash them. You all prob started with E. There a great site. And I agree with every one is disin them becouse everyone has left them. I think the only artists left are Daniel Garcia, Brad Christian, Nate Kranzo, DE'VO and Ray Singson. Who cares new people with come thru.

JDEN

 

[Farrell]

I totally agree. Just becouse they gone compercial dosent mean we have to bash them. You all prob started with E. There a great site. And I agree with every one is disin them becouse everyone has left them. I think the only artists left are Daniel Garcia, Brad Christian, Nate Kranzo, DE'VO and Ray Singson. Who cares new people with come thru.

JDEN

Speak for youself.

 

[Zephil]

I agree to an extent. E is a business; and businesses make money to survive. Would there be any difference if we began bashing coca cola because we happen to preffer pepsi (just a random analogy)?

That said, I still do a little bit of E bashing myself. However, it's more of a personal vendetta... You see, when I started magic, I got pretty hyped over a couple of their products and when the time came for me to hand over the wads of cash, they refused to sell to me. At least, they refused to sell to me unless i provided them with things such as bank statements, a credit record and a picture of me or some sort of license (note: I was 15 at the time = impossible to achieve).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents on the subject. Now lets stop making the threads and get on with the magic already .

 

[Tim Jahn]

That said, I still do a little bit of E bashing myself. However, it's more of a personal vendetta... You see, when I started magic, I got pretty hyped over a couple of their products and when the time came for me to hand over the wads of cash, they refused to sell to me. At least, they refused to sell to me unless i provided them with things such as bank statements, a credit record and a picture of me or some sort of license (note: I was 15 at the time = impossible to achieve).

Please tell me your not serious. I've ordered a lot of stuff in my time and I've never, ever been asked for ANYTHING other than payment. Could you please explain this?

Tim

 

[Steerpike]

People will believe what they want to believe, so long as it remains convenient for them.

Theory 11 has been built on hype just as much as Ellusionist. They just don't target beginners the way E does. They both sell the same type of single trick DVDs for about the same price. They use viral marketing. Their artists are open and accessible.

It's really just two sides of the same coin, and any rivalry exists only in the minds of the gullible and emotionally excitable.

We all know it all comes down to business in the end, but I guess the main reason for bashing is because Ellusionist has let the secrecy go in an attempt to make money.

People started saying that back when E started showing up higher and higher on Goggle and became a sponsored result. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Zephil]

Could you please explain this?

Tim

Sadly, I am serious . At first I thought that it might be phishing of some sort, but I emailed their customer service and they verified that they would not ship the order unless I provided all that info. But hey, at least I saved a bit of money .

 

[guiguimanu]

theory 11 is pretty much the same as ellusionist. Only difference is theory 11 is much better at marketing theyre effects.

 

[KAL-EL]

I agree with you guiguimanu

 

[Deleted member 2755]

People will believe what they want to believe, so long as it remains convenient for them.

Theory 11 has been built on hype just as much as Ellusionist. They just don't target beginners the way E does. They both sell the same type of single trick DVDs for about the same price. They use viral marketing. Their artists are open and accessible.

It's really just two sides of the same coin, and any rivalry exists only in the minds of the gullible and emotionally excitable.



People started saying that back when E started showing up higher and higher on Goggle and became a sponsored result. Nothing new under the sun.

I agree with Steerpike 95.352654643623454325345436%. I do think that Theory 11 markets to beginners. Watch their 8 minute video on the front page. Also, head over to the 1 on 1 section. Aaron Fisher has 2 volumes of him teaching how to hold a deck, shuffle the deck, control a card, get breaks, and do double lifts. Their material isn't too hard either. Other than that, I completely agree with you Steerpike.

Wait until I make my video on how I feel about commercialism in magic. 25% of the people will say they already knew this and they agree with me. Another 25% will have their eyes opened. 50% will call my an ignorant jerk and say Ellusionist is an evil corporation and that Theory 11 is heaven. You will all see.

-Doug

 

[MoJoe13]

To me, they are basically the same. First of all, they both want to earn money by selling tricks, moves and custom decks. Thats the prime ambition, forget about the progressing of the art. That is not to say that they do not deliver quality content, because they do.

This is a contradiction. I think we could all agree that quality content progresses the art. By selling that quality content of which you speak, they are progressing the art we all love.

What's wrong with selling stuff? What's wrong with targeted marketing? Before E, and then T11, magic shops had a jokey, cardboard, cluttered way of marketing. Penguin Magic and Magic Makers come to mind, but that may be unfair.

But E and T11 come along, direct their efforts at specific markets and develop new themes. They design Web sites and tricks with that feel in mind. They present a new image of a magician: One wearing a cool T-shirt and jeans, not tails and a top hat. They develop products that magicians will enjoy using as much as spectators will enjoy seeing. They also redefine and improve cards for magicians and custom decks.

How is any of that wrong?

I'm glad these two companies are here, doing business. I'm big fans of both -- I've learned so much from Brad Christian and Aaron Fisher that my life is forever changed.

As for those of you who accuse E and T11 of being too commercial: If you are charging for your performances, busking or taking tips, then by the same logic, you have sold out. Enjoy that cold feeling of truth settling in your stomach.

 

[KAL-EL]

Couldn't of said it better myself mojoe13.

"By the way, that sexiest post, you were right it was hilarious. Sorry for the typo."

 

[Aris.SA]

Speak for youself.

Second that..

 

[JackOSpadesNik]

Ellusionist, in my opinion, doesn't care much about the progress of the art. They just want to sell tricks. Theory 11 is a company that is still a buisness trying to market to kids with flashy demos and what not, but the difference is that they actually have artists that care about the art, and don't just want money.

Brad Christian cares about his company more than magic. Why?

He's willing to block out any artist that wants to help, but isn't part of Ellusionist. Wayne Houchin got banned for joining T11.

Dan and Dave were accused of not following their contract that The Trilogy was exclusive on E. Obviously was a lie made by Christian because if the Bucks actually did breach their contract, that'd land them in a thick lawsuit.

I moderator on Penguin was screwed over by E when he submitted his trick. I'm not going to go into detail because I'm not sure if he wants me to tell the story, but it shows how E doesn't treat the magician with respect.

They rehash so many effects, but with cool new demos that make you want to buy it all over again.

They advertised on national Telivision during Celebracadabra. I have a problem how they send the horrible message of how any young kid can learn to perform a trick in less than 2 minutes.

Anyways, that's my opinion of E and why T11 is A LOT better company, magic wise, and ethically.

 

[Steerpike]

Ellusionist, in my opinion, doesn't care much about the progress of the art. They just want to sell tricks.

Did you just read the thread title and then decide to rant? The thread is specifically about how this argument is stupid.

Wayne Houchin got banned for joining T11.

I have proof that's bullsh*t. I stopped reading past this point because if you have to resort to hearsay and stuff you made up, you have no argument.

 

[MoJoe13]

Ellusionist, in my opinion, doesn't care much about the progress of the art. They just want to sell tricks. Theory 11 is a company that is still a business trying to market to kids with flashy demos and what not, but the difference is that they actually have artists that care about the art, and don't just want money.

I understand this is your opinion, but are you seriously saying that Daniel Garcia, Wayne Houchin, Ray Singson and even Brad Christian don't "care about the art?" Dag, brothaman. You might as well slap their faces and whiz in their Cheerios.

Just because you dislike the marketing method doesn't mean they are destroying our art. Keeping magic away from the public and being resistant to newcomers learning the art is destructive to magic. Not flashy, choppy video editing.

Side note to Steerpike: Your proof of Houchin not being banned; would it be the Ultragaff?

 

[Rabid]

Side note to Steerpike: Your proof of Houchin not being banned; would it be the Ultragaff?

Doubtful.

The reason is out there to be found if you wanna' look for it.
Not that it really makes any difference one way or another.

Can't we all stop this bollocks?

Surely there's better things to be doing with our time?

Practicing magic for instance.

(MoJoe, this was not directed at you)


Rabid

 

[zorklang]

k ya ive been torn about this since i discovered t11.
I think ellusionist has its merits...such as good custom decks and gaffs.
but i have been ripped of by them so many times.
effects like the axis change and revolution coin vanish. those are tricks that are sold for 10 - 20 $ but are simple enough to be sold in t11's 1 on 1 section for 5 bucks each.
the thing is, they hype everything sooo much. so you think your buying the greatest thing since sliced bread.

and then you find out the the sliced bread cant be put in a toaster without exploding.

 

[darosa.justin]

k ya ive been torn about this since i discovered t11.
I think ellusionist has its merits...such as good custom decks and gaffs.
but i have been ripped of by them so many times.
effects like the axis change and revolution coin vanish. those are tricks that are sold for 10 - 20 $ but are simple enough to be sold in t11's 1 on 1 section for 5 bucks each.
the thing is, they hype everything sooo much. so you think your buying the greatest thing since sliced bread.

and then you find out the the sliced bread cant be put in a toaster without exploding.

So what?

Simple things should be sold 'cheap'?

I HATE that attitude. There's a magic shop owner near my palce and I can honestly say he is the last person I'd want to see as a magician. Besides revealing effects in an attempt to SELL them, and attracting customers with "slieght-of-hand LESS" 'magic tricks'...he doesn't sell things because they are TOO SIMPLE.

In magic, simple tricks=/=cheap price. A simple trick can have the biggest effect, because of a brilliant idea, and that surely isn't 'cheap'.

I find it hard to explain why I feel this way. But I jsut really hate it when people say simple tricks are 'overpriced'.