Pass 2010

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
Thanks for you advice =]
I always think that doing a slow and not flashy pass with misdirection will work, but now you just give me a great point :D

You can do a fast pass without it being flashy. Jason England's pass is pretty fast, and it's not flashy in the slightest. If you weren't expecting it, you'd never catch it. Even expecting it I missed it a couple times.

Passes should (I think) always been done with misdirection. But, the faster your pass, the less misdirection you need. But then you also need to keep in mind things like tension in the shoulders and arms, clenching the jaw (I've seen and done it), twitching the hands too much, etc.

I think I already suggested this, but I've gotten a lot from Jason England's 1on1 on the pass.
 
Aug 31, 2007
90
0
You can do a fast pass without it being flashy. Jason England's pass is pretty fast, and it's not flashy in the slightest. If you weren't expecting it, you'd never catch it. Even expecting it I missed it a couple times.

Passes should (I think) always been done with misdirection. But, the faster your pass, the less misdirection you need. But then you also need to keep in mind things like tension in the shoulders and arms, clenching the jaw (I've seen and done it), twitching the hands too much, etc.

I think I already suggested this, but I've gotten a lot from Jason England's 1on1 on the pass.

I have the classic pass tutorial by Jason England, it really helps.
I guess I should watch it over again in order to make sure that I fully understand his points. =]
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
Ah, yes. I've watched it several times. Try to focus on his hands, as well, because there's some stuff he does subconsciously that he doesn't talk about. Another thing I do is just watch videos of people doing the pass wherever I can find them. Everyone does their own little thing and you can try to learn from them.

I don't know how gung ho you are about it, but you also may consider picking up a Pass Trainer by Hondo. I have one and I think it's improved my pass speed considerably. I also use it in one version of my ACR :)

Also, keep in mind, the pass is something that takes a very long time to 'perfect' to the point that you see some of the big names doing it. Jason England's been doing it for 20 years. Akira Fuji's been doing it for 10, I believe. Aaron Fisher said it took about 10 years to get his pass to the point that he wanted it. So be patient and keep working on it. Always try to improve and eventually you'll get it where you want it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
90
0
Ah, yes. I've watched it several times. Try to focus on his hands, as well, because there's some stuff he does subconsciously that he doesn't talk about. Another thing I do is just watch videos of people doing the pass wherever I can find them. Everyone does their own little thing and you can try to learn from them.

I don't know how gung ho you are about it, but you also may consider picking up a Pass Trainer by Hondo. I have one and I think it's improved my pass speed considerably. I also use it in one version of my ACR :)

Also, keep in mind, the pass is something that takes a very long time to 'perfect' to the point that you see some of the big names doing it. Jason England's been doing it for 20 years. Akira Fuji's been doing it for 10, I believe. Aaron Fisher said it took about 10 years to get his pass to the point that he wanted it. So be patient and keep working on it. Always try to improve and eventually you'll get it where you want it.

I DID try to order the Pass Trainer from Penquin but then they sold it out already =(
(They told me that I should order it from them ONE DAY EARLIER b/c they still had it in stock~ so sad................)
I kept checking out the pass trainer in Taiwan and Japan, and see if there is any stock left in the market.......

Akira Fuji said he practiced his pass for 20 years on his youtube channel. And ya, I really agree that everyone has their own handling on their pass. What I do now is to keep watching "Pass" videos online in order to get the feeling (since everyone's hands are different, not 100% possible to copy down =\)
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
You're thinking of the P.S.P. (Plates to Speed up Pass) which is what Akira Fuji used/endorsed. The Pass Trainer by Hondo is about $30 USD. ExoMagic, Hocus Pocus, Penguin .. they all carry it. I can't remember everywhere I saw it when I was looking for it, but I bought it from Hocus Pocus.
 

Mike.Hankins

creator / <a href="http://www.theory11.com/tricks/
Nov 21, 2009
435
0
Sacramento, Cali
I wonder how legends of the past were able to perfect their pass...
You can make your own for next to nothing. That is, if you REALLY need one. I doubt Jason England used a "trainer"...

But if you wanna make your own, just divide the deck into 26 cards...and them glue them like Paul Harris does on his Elevator Card Trick.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
I wonder how legends of the past were able to perfect their pass...
You can make your own for next to nothing. That is, if you REALLY need one. I doubt Jason England used a "trainer"...

But if you wanna make your own, just divide the deck into 26 cards...and them glue them like Paul Harris does on his Elevator Card Trick.

I've heard that some just take the cards in the case and practice it with two decks. Though I suppose the steel plates are heavier and will usually build up more strength in the hands for the sleight.
 
Aug 31, 2007
90
0
Wait they sell the Pass Trainer thing? I thought that was only sold from Japan for like a 100$

The P.S.P was the first pass trainer thing; after it sold out in a very short period of time, someone in Taiwan made the Pass Trainer set that can be found on Penquin Magic site.

I heard that, after you practice with it~ it feels like NOTHING when you do the pass with a regular deck.
 
Sep 3, 2008
49
0
ny
The only "device I use is rubber bands. I wrap them around the deck and have gotten use two. Just start off with one then two and so on then progress to smaller rubber bands. It takes time but I think it helped. Now my pass requires no energy, its automatic. And I can do a pass with rubber bands on the deck =)
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
Okay. I have seen a lot of negativity toward the idea of a pass trainer. Why?

Look, I know that some people think that 'perfecting' a pass is pointless. But I have to wonder, why does it matter? I want to get a fast pass. Other people want to get a fast pass. Yes, the pass is kind of archaic. Yes, there are more efficient ways of controlling a selection than the pass. Who cares? Why does it matter? Why can't people do things their own way?

From what I've read, Derek Dingle used two blocks of wood to increase the speed of his pass. If he'd had a steel deck, I'd put money on him using it.

So. Why can't everyone that thinks it's ridiculous to put effort into a pass just hush up, and let the people that want a faster pass just do things their own way?
 
Jul 13, 2010
526
34
Yes, the pass is kind of archaic. Yes, there are more efficient ways of controlling a selection than the pass.
I agree with you.

I don´t agree with the argument that a side steal is 'better' than a pass. An often overlooked advantage of a pass is that it just cuts the deck and that keeps the relative deck order. For example with a memorized deck it is often essential to keep the relative deck order after bringing the card to the top. A side steal or a similar replacement (that brings just one card to the top) isn´t sufficient.
It´s 100% dependent on the situation/effect whether a pass is more efficient/economic or a side-steal (for example).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mike.Hankins

creator / <a href="http://www.theory11.com/tricks/
Nov 21, 2009
435
0
Sacramento, Cali
Okay. I have seen a lot of negativity toward the idea of a pass trainer. Why?

Look, I know that some people think that 'perfecting' a pass is pointless. But I have to wonder, why does it matter? I want to get a fast pass. Other people want to get a fast pass. Yes, the pass is kind of archaic. Yes, there are more efficient ways of controlling a selection than the pass. Who cares? Why does it matter? Why can't people do things their own way?

From what I've read, Derek Dingle used two blocks of wood to increase the speed of his pass. If he'd had a steel deck, I'd put money on him using it.

So. Why can't everyone that thinks it's ridiculous to put effort into a pass just hush up, and let the people that want a faster pass just do things their own way?

I think it is fantastic that you want to learn how to execute a pass with speed, accuracy and perfection. Hell, not many out there THINK they need to. I just don't see the point in purchasing a $30 deck of steel cards to help with a move that has been in print for how long now?

Sure, the idea of something to build up hand and finger strength is great. But all I was asking was out off all of the greats before us and with us now...how many of them used anything besides rubberbands to help with their pass?

Dingle used blocks of wood to help with his pass, true. But Honestly, does a "pass trainer" feel like a deck in your hands? Does it bow right when executing the sleight? I just don't see the point in spending $30 on something like this is all.

And while it may build hand and finger strength, that does not mean that your pass will look any better. Sure, the transposing of the two packets will be executed with lightning speed because your hands are used to holding a heavier "deck"...but: What about angles? What about timing and misdirection? What about that pinky I saw move a tiny tiny tiny bit? Steel cards won't help with that.

I open to opinions from people who have actually purchased the pass trainer and used it for more than 6 months to really gauge how it has helped with their pass.

Good luck on that speed, Mr. Gonzales. Get it? Speed? Gonzales? Speedy Gonz--nevermind...

Mike
 
Aug 31, 2007
90
0
I think it is fantastic that you want to learn how to execute a pass with speed, accuracy and perfection. Hell, not many out there THINK they need to. I just don't see the point in purchasing a $30 deck of steel cards to help with a move that has been in print for how long now?

Sure, the idea of something to build up hand and finger strength is great. But all I was asking was out off all of the greats before us and with us now...how many of them used anything besides rubberbands to help with their pass?

Dingle used blocks of wood to help with his pass, true. But Honestly, does a "pass trainer" feel like a deck in your hands? Does it bow right when executing the sleight? I just don't see the point in spending $30 on something like this is all.

And while it may build hand and finger strength, that does not mean that your pass will look any better. Sure, the transposing of the two packets will be executed with lightning speed because your hands are used to holding a heavier "deck"...but: What about angles? What about timing and misdirection? What about that pinky I saw move a tiny tiny tiny bit? Steel cards won't help with that.

I open to opinions from people who have actually purchased the pass trainer and used it for more than 6 months to really gauge how it has helped with their pass.

Good luck on that speed, Mr. Gonzales. Get it? Speed? Gonzales? Speedy Gonz--nevermind...

Mike

IDK how good/bad can a Pass Trainer bring to me~I just know that Akira Fuji used that to practice his pass for many years and his passes DO look great at all (good speed and angle)---- Therefore, I guess I still want to give a try? =]
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
I think it is fantastic that you want to learn how to execute a pass with speed, accuracy and perfection. Hell, not many out there THINK they need to. I just don't see the point in purchasing a $30 deck of steel cards to help with a move that has been in print for how long now?

So, because a move has been in print a hundred years, I shouldn't bother to look for new and improved ways to train it? Every art refines and changes its methods of training and execution over time. When the pass was the dominant sleight out there, cards were just card board with no 'air flow' finish, either. Should we all switch back to those? No, that would be ridiculous. Why wouldn't we use new methods and technologies to train?

Sure, the idea of something to build up hand and finger strength is great. But all I was asking was out off all of the greats before us and with us now...how many of them used anything besides rubber bands to help with their pass?

I have no idea. And honestly, you don't either. We have no idea what the 'greats' did other than what they wrote about, or what was written about them. For every book out there, there's probably thousands of magicians that never published anything. We have no idea how good they were, or how they learned their skills.

Dingle used blocks of wood to help with his pass, true. But Honestly, does a "pass trainer" feel like a deck in your hands? Does it bow right when executing the sleight? I just don't see the point in spending $30 on something like this is all.

Yes, it does. It feels like a very solid, heavy deck of cards. The dimensions are the same. It doesn't bow at all when I execute a pass, but then neither does a regular deck of cards. I can see spending $30 on it, especially when it previously sold for $80 plus shipping from Japan. You're fully entitled to your opinion, of course, but honestly I am getting a "You're stupid for using this" vibe from your posts and that rubs me the wrong way.

And while it may build hand and finger strength, that does not mean that your pass will look any better. Sure, the transposing of the two packets will be executed with lightning speed because your hands are used to holding a heavier "deck"...but: What about angles? What about timing and misdirection? What about that pinky I saw move a tiny tiny tiny bit? Steel cards won't help with that.

I never claimed to train these aspects of the pass with a pass trainer. The trainer is used to increase the strength of your hands, and thus assist with the speed of the pass. Proper technique still needs to be studied. Timing still needs to be developed. Angles need to be cared for. Does weighting a baseball bat before stepping up to the plate make a hitter aim better? No. But it does make him swing that bat harder. You seem to think that I'm saying this is the end-all, beat-all solution to learning the pass and that's just not the case. When someone asks me about the pass I usually recommend several videos, especially Jason England's, and a couple books. I mention the pass trainer as a way to increase the strength of the hands and speed of the pass only, nothing more.

I would like to say, though, that using a pass trainer has made my pass look better. I've gone from a pass that (when watched, which is not how I use it in my magic) was slow and obvious, to one that is described as, "Okay, it looked like you flicked the deck but I have no idea what you're doing." This is the result of a combination of reading Erdnase's description of the Two Handed Shift several times, watching Jason England's 1on1 several times, using the pass trainer, and refining the technique for my own hands.

I open to opinions from people who have actually purchased the pass trainer and used it for more than 6 months to really gauge how it has helped with their pass.

I'll let you know. I'm only two months in at this point, but I'm seeing some pretty good results.

Good luck on that speed, Mr. Gonzales. Get it? Speed? Gonzales? Speedy Gonz--nevermind...

Mike

This just seems like ad hominem.

Now, it's entirely possible that I've just misread the tone of your posts and if that's the case then I truly apologize. However, I must say you're coming across as rather disrespectful and holier than thou, and I find it annoying. I respect you as a creator and a performer, why can't you respect me as someone that's learning in my own way? I mean, do you really feel that my advice is so bad that you must speak up and keep people from falling prey to my heretical new-age methods? Does it hurt you in any way if someone follows my advice and uses a pass trainer? Can't we all just get along?
 

Mike.Hankins

creator / <a href="http://www.theory11.com/tricks/
Nov 21, 2009
435
0
Sacramento, Cali
So, because a move has been in print a hundred years, I shouldn't bother to look for new and improved ways to train it? Every art refines and changes its methods of training and execution over time. When the pass was the dominant sleight out there, cards were just card board with no 'air flow' finish, either. Should we all switch back to those? No, that would be ridiculous. Why wouldn't we use new methods and technologies to train?

First of all...I am not coming off as disrespectful at all...you may be taking it that way because this is something that applies to you. I have never been disrespectful nor will I ever be. With that said...I encourage anyone to look for bigger and better methods to help with a move that quite frankly can never be "perfect". Which is why I wanted to see the results after a good amount of time of using the trainer. I think it would be pretty cool to have a video of a "before" and "after". Monitor someone's pass pre-trainer and then after. That would be cool to me.


I have no idea. And honestly, you don't either. We have no idea what the 'greats' did other than what they wrote about, or what was written about them. For every book out there, there's probably thousands of magicians that never published anything. We have no idea how good they were, or how they learned their skills.

There have been quite a few books that I have read that talk about what "they" have done to improve their passes. So while I do not have exact numbers to type, I can say that a majority of peeps that I read about used one of 3 methods. :)
And you are right, there are probably thousands of magicians out there even now, who could execute a pass with 2 Volvo cars, but will never be seen in print.


Yes, it does. It feels like a very solid, heavy deck of cards. The dimensions are the same. It doesn't bow at all when I execute a pass, but then neither does a regular deck of cards. I can see spending $30 on it, especially when it previously sold for $80 plus shipping from Japan. You're fully entitled to your opinion, of course, but honestly I am getting a "You're stupid for using this" vibe from your posts and that rubs me the wrong way.

Nope. You are wrong sir. You are SMART to want to better yourself in this art that has so many people who do not want to better themselves. I applaud and envy you as a matter of fact. I will wait and see how this thing sells and improves people's passes before I spend even $5 on it. That is me, that is how I work. I actually like the idea of deck switching into that trainer deck, and do some sort of routine with that...hell, that might be worth the $30 to me :)


I never claimed to train these aspects of the pass with a pass trainer. The trainer is used to increase the strength of your hands, and thus assist with the speed of the pass. Proper technique still needs to be studied. Timing still needs to be developed. Angles need to be cared for. Does weighting a baseball bat before stepping up to the plate make a hitter aim better? No. But it does make him swing that bat harder. You seem to think that I'm saying this is the end-all, beat-all solution to learning the pass and that's just not the case. When someone asks me about the pass I usually recommend several videos, especially Jason England's, and a couple books. I mention the pass trainer as a way to increase the strength of the hands and speed of the pass only, nothing more.

I would like to say, though, that using a pass trainer has made my pass look better. I've gone from a pass that (when watched, which is not how I use it in my magic) was slow and obvious, to one that is described as, "Okay, it looked like you flicked the deck but I have no idea what you're doing." This is the result of a combination of reading Erdnase's description of the Two Handed Shift several times, watching Jason England's 1on1 several times, using the pass trainer, and refining the technique for my own hands.



I'll let you know. I'm only two months in at this point, but I'm seeing some pretty good results.



This just seems like ad hominem.

Now, it's entirely possible that I've just misread the tone of your posts and if that's the case then I truly apologize. However, I must say you're coming across as rather disrespectful and holier than thou, and I find it annoying. I respect you as a creator and a performer, why can't you respect me as someone that's learning in my own way? I mean, do you really feel that my advice is so bad that you must speak up and keep people from falling prey to my heretical new-age methods? Does it hurt you in any way if someone follows my advice and uses a pass trainer? Can't we all just get along?

It was possible because I am not in any way thinking that I am better than anyone on here with anything...I WANT to get along. Heck, I even want you to come over and play on my XBOX360!

No hard feelings...

Keep working with that trainer and let me see the before and after vids... :)

Mike
 
Last edited by a moderator:

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,772
2,879
Ok, fair enough. I misread your tone and as I said, for that I apologize.

I would be videoing my progress, but I don't have a video camera. Mine was stolen some time ago and I can't afford another one yet.

I do end one version of my ACR with the steel deck, and it gets very good reactions and keeps me in people's minds. A lot of it is the sound of the deck being dribbled into their hands, or onto a table. The sound carries quite a lot and the auditory shock basically means they won't be able to forget it. Highly recommended. :)
 
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results