People don't like the cross cut force?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Antonio Diavolo, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. I recently found out that quite a few magicians don't like the cross cut force. Is this the case for anyone here? If so, why? Because I personally think it's a very easy and deceptive force, especially because (from my experience) most laymen think of a force as "having one card pushed out more than the others". So even just allowing them to cut the deck themselves makes it seem more legit. Just my opinion. What do you think?
  2. Its gold. I worked in a magic shop for several years and used it thousands of times with great success. Though I think it's best in casual situations without emphasizing the process. Some people will go on and on about how 'you could have cut anywhere but you chose this spot instead of here or here or blah blah blah'. If everyone will skip that, use time md, avoid challenge/puzzle presentations and not make it the big finish then it's good stuff
  3. I could not possibly agree more with the comments of Antonio and David. What magicians "don't like" is generally irrelevant because they most often do not think like laymen do, or understand the psychology of an ordinary person, i.e., the average layman. A great many magicians are enamored with the classic force, because, once again, thinking like a magician, they are into the "move." What they don't stop to consider is that any time a magician goes into a "Pick a card" scenario, it is, to most laymen, a cliche - they have seen their uncle Harold or a friend or whomever do a bad trick that begins that way, or even they themselves have a trick like that. The cards are within the magician's control, so this raises suspicion in the mind of a layman who believes (and rightfully so) that a magician can manipulate the cards and force the selection of a particular card. As Erdnase said, "They should not even suspect, let alone detect."

    In the past when I used to have a card chosen (or forced) by the pick a card method, I have even been immediately cut off, with the spectator saying, "Oh I've seen that one."

    To a layman, if they cut the deck, it imparts a sense of the utmost fairness and dispels suspicion. Here's what Ted Annemann, the all time scholar and master of the force, had to say about the criss-cross cut force in his book, 202 Methods of Forcing: "An old timer but very practical and deceiving force is to have the card on the top and deck on the table. Ask to have it cut anywhere and when this is done, performer carelessly puts the lower half on upper half but crosswise. It is left this way for a few minutes while the trick is continued, until time for selection to be revealed when top half is taken off and top card of lower half (?) turned over. Really deceptive."

    My experience has taught me that Annemann is absolutely correct - Really deceptive. It is super-convincing and never questioned. And you really don't even need "a few minutes" of time misdirection. 30 seconds to a minute will suffice.
  4. Couldn't have said it better.
  5. Hmm. I have not liked it for a long time. I had a few observant people catch me on it and just have always done more reliable forces since then.

    But reading your post is making me consider: I wonder if I was caught simply because I was less experienced with the time delay and distraction needed. I've always known this element is important, but maybe I just didn't do it well. Perhaps I should be giving this another go now that I've improved at these things...
    RickU likes this.
  6. Is it more deceptive when you have them cut but you place the packets crossed, or if you take the time to explain it to them to place the bottom half on top? (does that make sense )
  7. I think I see what you're getting at. The way I use the force is I place the bottom half on top right as I start talking to them as misdirection. For me, this keeps them from completely burning my hands so they see what I've done but s
    A subtlety I picked up somewhere that also seems to help is by not placing the cards on top perfectly perpendicular to the top half. I'll let the bottom half sort of fall off the top packet. It seems to help sell the illusion.
    It's hard to explain but that's what works for me
  8. This is a great force to use and I goes right over people's heads if you do it right! An additional advantage is that you can not touch the cards yourself. This I always a priority for me. (I am a mentalist). I like to have my spectators handle the materials, be they cards or whatever to the greatest extent possible. You can spice up this force by using equivoque. (Do you prefer the top or bottom?) Credit goes to Max Maven for this detail.
  9. I prefer to place the cards for them because I do not want to draw attention to the process by explaining it to them. They won't remember what they didn't notice.
    It's not 100%. I was never called on it but I'm sure I was caught occasionally when working in the magic shop. But I think some people figured out how I did the ball and vase too! That's why I think it's best in casual situations. I don't do high priced gigs, but if I did I don't think I would use this. Having said that, it worked way, WAY better than I thought it would. If people went home and thought about it a lot I think they could reverse engineer it, but that is why I wouldn't use for my big finish. I want them trying do deconstruct something else and not think about this one. As for the time md, I would simply make small talk for a few moments and then continue. The duration was not as important as simply clearing their memory cache by briefly shifting their attention to conversation mode.
    Justin.Morris likes this.
  10. Have fun and try it with objects other than playing cards to force a selection.
  11. John Bannon teaches some nice subtleties about the cross cut force in his Move Zero DVD.

    When performed well, with the right patter and careful attention to detail, it can be very effective, and shouldn't be underestimated, especially with lay-people.
  12. Wait how do you force other objects using a cross cut force?
  13. Postcards, written on index cards, photographs, and anything else that is flawed and stackable.
  14. Ohhhhh I thought you meant using the actual objects and I was really confused.
  15. Yes, it's very difficult to cross cut force a banana.

    I like the cross cut force just fine. I feel like it's healthy as artists and innovators to continually try new things. I'll use the cross cut force but I like to experiment with other stuff and try to "eliminate" any problems the force may have.

    This thinking has lead to several original applications that I am very proud of.

    I dislike lazy magicians using a cross cut force where it doesn't make sense, just because it's easy to do.
    Antonio Diavolo and RealityOne like this.
  16. I used it when I first started doing magic because it was the only force I knew and it was easy. I hated it though because it seemed too simple and I was afraid I was going to be caught. So I learned a few different forces.
    I recently saw Franco Pascalli post on instagram about how underrated the cross cut is and it made me think because when I was using it, no one else "figured out" that a card was being forced on them. I would say now I keep it in the back of my mind to use if I need to force a card.
    Antonio Diavolo likes this.
  17. I don't like it for one single reason...if you perform it too many times, audience catches on. Same for Hindu Force...A good riffle force on the other hand...

    HOWEVER if I happen to get a spectator who's constantly burning my hands...surprisingly it's the cross-cut force that fools him.

    So I'd rate it 7.5/10, tbh...
    Antonio Diavolo likes this.
  18. fair enough

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