Playing Cards in Mentalism. Yes or No?

Sep 1, 2007
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Belgrade, Serbia
Hey guys, this has been an age old question, weather to use playing cards in mentalism or not. One school of thought is that you should not use the playing cards since they associate to trickery and tricks, which is what most mentalists are trying to get as far away from, as possible. The other school of thought is that they don't care, it doesn't bother them either way because in the end, who cares?

I am on the fence for this one for so long, and I've been going back and forth, and right now I am in a place where I DO use playing cards, but ONLY if they are justified. The way I justify them is either by doing some sort of demonstration at a poker table, by reading the minds, or the body language, or whatever, to determine what cards does the spectator have OR by doing some memory effect saying that in the memory olypmics, one of the stages is to memorize a deck of cards, which is a fact. The last reason I use to justify them is by saying that they are something that is familiar to everybody, so it's easier to work with, if I do the effect where they guess what card I have in mind, or by using them as a medium for readings, which many psychics actually do.

Also, the way I introduce them in the card game setting is by saying "if I was a magician, which I am not, I could just snap my fingers and make money appear, which is the dream of every person in the world. But since I am a mind reader, I need to find other ways, and that is by winning at poker by reading people...". Something along those lines.

So I would like to hear your opinions and experiences. Do you use playing cards in mentalism, and WHY?

Cheers,
Toby
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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I don't, but only because nothing I can do currently with cards would be as good as the things I do without cards. I simply don't have time in the show to put in a lesser effect.

It is entirely possible to successfully use cards in mentalism. The key is to use them in such a way that it doesn't feel like a card trick, but instead that you happen to be using cards for XYZ reason.

I personally think genuine memory routines are the best place for cards in mentalism. Memory skills are very much a mentalism skill, and people think that having memorized 52 symbols is impressive. I am currently working on a memory routine that will likely take me about a year to get to performance level.

I would hesitate to even do mind reading with cards, unless it's genuine. As in, thought-of card divination. Anything that makes it seem like the best explanation is sleight of hand will shift you instantly to being a magician doing tricks.
 
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Jun 22, 2017
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I have done mentalist tricks with a deck of cards and I've also seen one with coins so you can use anything for mentalism cards included
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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I have done mentalist tricks with a deck of cards and I've also seen one with coins so you can use anything for mentalism cards included

Yes, you can, but you have to do so while keeping in mind that mentalism has a different theatrical approach than magic. Therefore you have to take extra care not to let the routines turn into just doing a mental trick - that's not mentalism, that's mental magic (Which is fine, but be aware of what you are going for)
 
Jul 26, 2016
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Why not try using Tarot cards? People generally associate regular playing cards with gambling, card games and amateurish card tricks. Even if they have seen a good card magician using regular paying cards, they typically attribute the effects to sleight-of-hand. Tarot cards are colorful and have have a mystique and personality about them that would fit in naturally with the mentalism theme since people understand that they are used to read attributes of people, what is going on in their lives, and to foretell and guide the future. Thus, Tarot cards can adapt nicely to mind reading, telepathy and/or prediction effects.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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Why not try using Tarot cards? People generally associate regular playing cards with gambling, card games and amateurish card tricks. Even if they have seen a good card magician using regular paying cards, they typically attribute the effects to sleight-of-hand. Tarot cards are colorful and have have a mystique and personality about them that would fit in naturally with the mentalism theme since people understand that they are used to read attributes of people, what is going on in their lives, and to foretell and guide the future. Thus, Tarot cards can adapt nicely to mind reading, telepathy and/or prediction effects.
One problem with that: Tarot is legit a card game, and after a ton of research, they are actually more popular as a card game than for mind reading. Tarot is a game where people make and take bets, and gamble away there money. Further more, I don't think anybody has looked at David Blaine and Shin Lim and said "Oh he must be an amateur because he uses playing cards." In fact, I don't think anybody has ever said that. So yes, Tarot card would be great for mind reading, but if you are willing to use Tarot cards, you are willing to use playing cards. If it is "pazaz" you are worried about, there are a ton of beautiful custom decks out there that you can use - ones that are cheaper than custom Tarot decks.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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I was not aware that Tarot cards were widely used for card games or that anyone would bother doing a ton of research on something like that. But if that's the fact of the matter, I just learned something and see the point you are making, Maaz. One thing I would like to clarify, though, is that I did not mean to suggest that people who have seen David Blane and Shim Lim have thought of them as amateurs because they use playing cards. Of course, they are professionals of the highest order. My point was that many people have seen amateurs, or more often, just someone who might know one trick, do a card trick (usually not very well executed) with a deck of playing cards - you know - like in a social or familial setting.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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I was not aware that Tarot cards were widely used for card games or that anyone would bother doing a ton of research on something like that. But if that's the fact of the matter, I just learned something and see the point you are making, Maaz. One thing I would like to clarify, though, is that I did not mean to suggest that people who have seen David Blane and Shim Lim have thought of them as amateurs because they use playing cards. Of course, they are professionals of the highest order. My point was that many people have seen amateurs, or more often, just someone who might know one trick, do a card trick (usually not very well executed) with a deck of playing cards - you know - like in a social or familial setting.

Lol I did the research for a school project, and I said a ton because it was more than the normal human would bother doing, and though it wasn't literally a ton, still took me a while though (it was part of a huge essay, probably like a tenth of it).

And I still don't think anyone would generically assume that someone using playing cards is too much of an amateur, especially if they work on their presentation. Besides, Playing card magic is the largest genre of magic, and has been for several years, probably at least a 2 - 3 decades, so meh.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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It's funny you mention that, I'm currently practicing Past, Present, Future by Rick Lax as I'm taking breaks on the forums.

But the question is, are you taking breaks in the past, the present or the future? Think about it, you post it in the present, we see it in the past, but at that given point it is relative to the future.....


Did I eat a flux capacitor and Bill Nye, cuz I don't entirely know what I said.
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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Why, I do not know, but it is slowly dying out.

What on earth would make you think that? I live in a state that literally has laws against fortune telling still active and on the books, and used, and I still see "Psychic - Cards Read" signs in several places around the city. Back in Fresno there was a Tarot reader on nearly every block.

Tarot readers aren't going anywhere.

Tarot is indeed a card game, one which came around long after what we currently call playing cards. Playing cards were used for cartomancy long before Tarot were, and are still used on a regular basis. In fact, when I was doing Tarot readings a few years back, at a haunted house in Madera, CA, one of my sitters actually explained the system he used, which used regular playing cards. And he was just a normal dude for the area - big mexican guy, t-shirt with the sleeves cut off, jean shorts, backwards baseball cap, etc.

So yeah. Card readers are not going anywhere, they are alive and abundant in the US.

EDIT: And to address the idea that simply substituting Tarot cards for mentalism - well, if you want to go that route, you better learn the systems. Because it won't be long before someone who -has- studied Tarot comes along and starts asking about the cards. If you can't keep up, your credibility will 100% be down the drain with anyone in that audience, and anyone who that person talks to - and they will.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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@ChristopherT
Hmmm. I have seen the exact opposite. I have seen fortune tellers who would work at carnivals and circuses slowly die out. Besides, I was referencing on a global scale, where fortune telling is actually declining a ton.
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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That's probably a regional thing. I really don't think it's dying out at all - if anything it'll will continue to flourish in certain regions as it always has. Here in the US we're in very uncertain times, and that's when fortune tellers appear everywhere.

Even here, where it is literally illegal (I believe it's a misdemeanor, punishable by 2 years in prison and/or $5,000 fine - last used to prosecute a case in 2015 in Phili - I'll copy the actual law below in case anyone is curious) there's several psychics in every city. I can think of 5 who run businesses within 20 miles of me. I'm currently doing a run of shows in a ren fair in CT which has at least two people doing card readings, and I'd be surprised if there was any ren fair in the US that doesn't have tarot readers.

Back in Fresno tarot readers were everywhere. As in businesses, which means being able to pay rent.

It's entirely possible that Tarot readers are not as common in carnivals and circuses, but they're still quite plentiful in other areas. Fortune Telling is one of those things that is inherently interesting to humans - in bad times, we want assurance that everything will be OK, in good times we think it's a fun thing to do.

Here's the law, in case anyone is interested:
§ 7104. Fortune telling.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of a misdemeanor of
the third degree if he pretends for gain or lucre, to tell
fortunes or predict future events, by cards, tokens, the
inspection of the head or hands of any person, or by the age of
anyone, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies,
or in any other manner, or for gain or lucre, pretends to effect
any purpose by spells, charms, necromancy, or incantation, or
advises the taking or administering of what are commonly called
love powders or potions, or prepares the same to be taken or
administered, or publishes by card, circular, sign, newspaper or
other means that he can predict future events, or for gain or
lucre, pretends to enable anyone to get or to recover stolen
property, or to tell where lost property is, or to stop bad
luck, or to give good luck, or to put bad luck on a person or
animal, or to stop or injure the business or health of a person
or shorten his life, or to give success in business, enterprise,
speculation, and games of chance, or to win the affection of a
person, or to make one person marry another, or to induce a
person to make or alter a will, or to tell where money or other
property is hidden, or to tell where to dig for treasure, or to
make a person to dispose of property in favor of another.
(b) Advertising as evidence.--Any publication contrary to
this section may be given in evidence to sustain the indictment.
(c) Competency of witnesses.--Any person whose fortune may
have been told shall be a competent witness against the person
charged with violating this section.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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That's probably a regional thing. I really don't think it's dying out at all - if anything it'll will continue to flourish in certain regions as it always has. Here in the US we're in very uncertain times, and that's when fortune tellers appear everywhere.

Even here, where it is literally illegal (I believe it's a misdemeanor, punishable by 2 years in prison and/or $5,000 fine - last used to prosecute a case in 2015 in Phili - I'll copy the actual law below in case anyone is curious) there's several psychics in every city. I can think of 5 who run businesses within 20 miles of me. I'm currently doing a run of shows in a ren fair in CT which has at least two people doing card readings, and I'd be surprised if there was any ren fair in the US that doesn't have tarot readers.

Back in Fresno tarot readers were everywhere. As in businesses, which means being able to pay rent.

It's entirely possible that Tarot readers are not as common in carnivals and circuses, but they're still quite plentiful in other areas. Fortune Telling is one of those things that is inherently interesting to humans - in bad times, we want assurance that everything will be OK, in good times we think it's a fun thing to do.

Here's the law, in case anyone is interested:
You know part of the reason for me not knowing about too many may also be that I, along with most kids at school or in the neighborhoods, just did not really care about it. I mean I wasn't really gonna pay attention to something I didn't really care about, right? Some sort of reverse-Blue-Car-Syndrome or whatever.

Anyways, as far as the U.S. is concerned, fortune tellers are actually popping up a lot more, especially in areas like L.A., Milwaukee, etc.

Just checked with a few sources and there are about 7 actual fortune tellers who are making an actual living in the Greater Philly Area and the surrounding area (some people advertised in Philly from NYC, you essentially have all of Eastern PA & Central, NJ, Southern NY, and part of the DMV area). Most of them have just recently closed, or will soon, though a few are "flourishing".

Same case with DC, which is where I'm living now. The "biggest fortune telling business" in the area has a 2 star review on yelp though just found out there is about 10 miles from my house. Funny, because I apparently pass it every time I have to visit my knee doctor. I thought it was an antique store lol.

Probably significantly less popular on the east coast and new England.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
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Yeah - I'm in southern PA, about 1.5 hours west of Phili, currently. It's a very conservative area. Which doesn't mean that fortune tellers aren't all over the place, it just means they aren't always obvious about it.

The funny thing about fortune telling is that it's a word of mouth business. They haven't really broken into the technical world just yet. But the psychic who has a 2 star rating on Yelp may be the one that a hundred people swear by, and recommend to all their friends. You won't find any references to my cartomancy online, but I've got people who swear I'm genuinely psychic (Which I never claim to be, and tell people my readings are a combination of perfectly natural skills).

In this city there's a church on almost every corner, and there's a really high concentration of Amish and Menonite communities. But there's also a huge population of Wiccans and other neo-pagans. That's aside from the Hoodoo/Appalachian style hedge witchery. Most of those people know at least a little about telling fortunes. They just don't necessarily do it for a living.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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795
@ Christopher: "And to address the idea that simply substituting Tarot cards for mentalism - well, if you want to go that route, you better learn the systems. Because it won't be long before someone who -has- studied Tarot comes along and starts asking about the cards. If you can't keep up, your credibility will 100% be down the drain with anyone in that audience, and anyone who that person talks to - and they will."

Point well taken. I have started to study the Tarot. About 15 years ago I was hired to do close up Magic at a Super Bowl Party in Jupiter, Florida. That's a tough gig since people are there to watch the mother of all sporting events. At one point, I did a trick for a woman that I had learned from my mentor (using a regular deck). The effect was quasi-cold reading, where you take a card seemingly at random from the deck and say, for example, "All right, this card, the Queen of Hearts symbolizes love and romance - this year, you will experience love on a level which you never have before." The card is then placed in her outstretched hand face-down. A cold reading is then done with three more seemingly random cards in succession, each being placed face-down in her hand after briefly and improvisationally expounding upon it's meaning for her. At the end, the four face down (apparently indifferent cards) are turned face-up to reveal that they are in fact the four aces, with the patter line that, "2002 will be your luckiest year ever." The reaction to this was stunning. Within 5 minutes, there was literally a line of women (probably between 10-20), who wanted their fortunes told, as word had obviously spread. Although my intent was to do a strong magic routine with a fortune-telling theme, the women at the party perceived it, not as a trick, but genuine fortune telling. Meanwhile, the men were all completely absorbed in the Super Bowl, and could care less about having their fortunes told or seeing magic.

What does this tell us?
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
§ 7104. Fortune telling.
(a) Offense defined.
--A person is guilty of a misdemeanor of
the third degree if he pretends for gain or lucre, to tell
fortunes or predict future events, by cards, tokens, the
inspection of the head or hands of any person, or by the age of
anyone, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies,
or in any other manner,

It is only illegal if you are pretending to do it. If you actually do it, it is perfectly legal.:cool:

Do you use playing cards in mentalism, and WHY?

Anneman, T.A. Waters and Max Maven all use(d) playing cards, so there really isn't a big issue there. I think the confusion is whether a mentalist should mix card tricks (or any other magic tricks) with mentalism. My answer is no, because it brings the mentalism presentation down to just being a trick.

As @ChristopherT said, there is a difference between mentalism and mental magic. Mental magic is magic trick with a presentation based on psychic phenomena. Mentalism is a demonstration of psychic powers. The problem with playing cards is that they tend to trivialize the psychic powers in two ways. The first is that if you could really read minds, wouldn't you use it to a more interesting purpose than guessing a playing card? The second is that playing cards conjure (pun intended) images of magicians and card tricks. Rather than using playing cards, you could use other types of cards. There are a lot of effects using cards other than playing cards card in Max Maven's boook Prism. There also several good card effects in Prism and in T.A.Water's Mind, Myth and Magik.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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795
@Reality One: "The problem with playing cards is that they tend to trivialize the psychic powers in two ways. The first is that if you could really read minds, wouldn't you use it to a more interesting purpose than guessing a playing card? The second is that playing cards conjure (pun intended) images of magicians and card tricks. Rather than using playing cards, you could use other types of cards."

I believe this was my original point, although RealityOne articulated it more clearly.
 
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