Psychological Forces

Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by abstract52, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. What is a good phsycological force where you don't need to have the deck you just make the spectator think of the card you want them to? Aren't there some of these in d+M's ONE and in Dee's Anate Simplex Killer? Howw practical/ reliable are these types of forces?
     
  2. Are you considering the one where you say "think of a card" and they are most likely going to say queen of hearts or ace of spades or something? There is a really cool force in Andi Gladwin's book, "movers and shakers" where you fan the deck and have them just look at one card and you know which one it is. Not really what you're looking for but it's really cool
     
  3. Think of a Card. Any card. Name it out loud now.... *DO NOT SCROLL DOWN RIGHT AWAY*























    I usually have success with psychologically forcing the four of clubs, also the 2 of hearts. d+M has some very good psychological forces in ONE that involve telling a story that has some implications. Anate is a clever principle, but only works1 or 2/5 times (3/11 for me so far though... :( )

    I don't think there is a set way to psychologically force a card, although there are some good methods in the books you listed, and there are some good ones in Benjamin Earl's Past Midnight set (DISC 3).

    Was it a 4 of Clubs, 2 of hearts, or 7 of spades ?


    Good luck,

    -Sanj
     
  4. I'm looking for something where you words and actions and tone ect... make them think of a certain card (or have a good chance of thinking of the card you want them to). David Blaine goes over this a little bit in his book but doesn't fully teach one he just gives you commonly thought of cards. (this was intending for True2coins but i forgot to quote him)
     
  5. Thanks, do you have any experience with d+M's, if so how often do they succeed? Because it says 100% accurate on his site.
     
  6. He teaches you a way out in ONE where even if your Psycj force misses, to them it still seems like you got it right, its quite cool , I love doing it
     
  7. I really like pyscological forces without cards because it seems like real magic when you hit. So far, the best in my opinion (i.e. success rate) is the invisible deal force in Derren Brown's Devil's Picturebook. I love to hear other methods. I think Anate is pretty good but you definitely need some outs because it hits probably 50% of the time (for me).
     
  8. #8 TheHungerArtist, Aug 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2009
    Yes, in ONE there is a great psych force, and this lays out the fundamentals of what is trying to be achieved, there is also a psych force in D+Ms book Irreversible (1st edition, no longer available but the overall effect is included in Identity), there is also a psych force I published in Identity that is, even I will say, a little blatant. If you can get your hands on a copy of Derren Brown's Pure Effect, or buy his video "The Devil's Picturebook" you can get a good start at just what psych forces are. If you have the advocate you can failsafe it.
    Oh and a few things, and these really are key--
    you're going to practice a lot, and you're going to fail. I'm sorry, that's just how it works in the beginning, then, all of a sudden, when it doesn't seem like you are doing anything different, it will get closer, but still fall short, and then eventually you'll just nail them, you pick up a lot on what is working, how you are suggesting things by physicality, double talk, and changes in tonality, you need to give directions - but you have to spend a lot of time with these spectators beforehand so that you may build strong rapport with them, and when you do other tricks, observe how well they follow your directions. It's also good to preface the force with statements to the extent of "don't think of your favourite card or just a random card, in fact don't TRY to think of anything, if you do, this won't work, I need you to just genuinely keep a blank mind, one will come to you" as an insurance policy, the more of handle you have on how to manipulate and suggest and control, the less you'll have to rely on the latter. Hope that helps.
    -Chris
     
  9. The most reliable one for me is Seven of Hearts. Derren Brown teaches it in his lecture Dvd. Incredibly reliable. A tip for when you invent your psychological forces. Try them out on Omegle.com. Ahaha. Removes any need for outs, as if you fail, you can simply leave the conversation.
     
  10. I have to agree the 7 of Hearts taught on Derren's lecture DVD is rather effective.

    I did a week of shows at my old school, and on groups of around 15-20 students the success rate was usually around 2 to at most 5 people. In context of what I was doing, this is a massive success, considering the odds of them as a collective randomly guessing are just 1 in 52... the odds are that not one person in the room would name the card I had written on a board.

    Of course there were times when the force (though I prefer to call them nudges) didn't hit at all, but as a group they would have made up the card, where a lot of them thought the number 7 but not a heart, and the rest might have thought of a heart but not a 7.

    Again in context, very succesful 'experiment' I called it as a lead in to an effect. :)

    - Sean
     
  11. Firstly, it needs to be said that this type of magic is rare and infrequent. So if you're looking to perform that, you'll be disappointed. It really depends on how pure you want to go. For example, linguistic deception comes in several stages. There are some which are intended to push the spectator towards one choice but are not 100%. There are others which are indeed 100% but rather use linguistic subtleties rather than suggestion - for example, Bryn Reynolds has a good combination of the two put together.

    Derren Brown has good examples of pure forcing, but his type are rare and difficult.

    Can you use a deck of cards? In that case, start with Erdnase, then look into Derek Dingle, David Berglas, and Tom Baxter, in that order. It all depends how pure you want to go, but needless to say, the purer you want to go, the less you'll find on the subject.

    The most important thing is that you must must must understand the nature of mentalism and the place of psychological forces within mentalism. I routinely force, to name just one example, an apple. But the effect is not, "Think of a fruit. I have one here in my bag."

    The best uses of psychological suggestion come as augmentations to other effects, rather than standalone effects, in general. Very few forces will stand alone. You cannot, and will not, be able to perform only such effects. These effects are by nature incredibly impressive to magicians, so never forget to view them in laymen's eyes - the same rules for performing apply for these as you would with a swami.
     
    SamM11432 likes this.
  12. Check-out Banachek's Psychological Subtleties seires, In PS1 Banachek cover's a multitude of psychological forces also in PS2. Psychological Subtleties is being re-printed soon so have a look in to it.
     
  13. And it's worth mentioning that PS3 is in pre-order too.
     
  14. i don't think it's for sale but if it ever will i would say 'ESCP: ExtraSensory Cyber Perception'. Look it up on youtube. it works over the web so would definitely work irl too.:)
     
  15. The best resources for this are Derren Brown's Devil's Picturebook and his lecture.
     
  16. Whichever route you go, just make sure you know what you're studying. And beware confusing presentation for reality.
     
  17. I think that's the key. I can quite happily hindu force a card give the cards to them and make them believe that what I've done is sheerly psychological.

    I use ANATE as a card force, but I always have LOKI in my pocket as an out as it or any other truly linguistic or psyche forces will never hit 100%, unless there's some very clever dual reality going on, but to create 2 equally as powerful effects in that instance would take a lot of work.

    I'd say to focus on your presentations of regular card forces, from there, you'll have a solid feel of what your scripting and motions should be like for when you move on to advanced psyche forces in the future.

    Best,

    DC
     
  18. I am curious what outs people use when performing physycological forces? I know Dee mentions LOKI but am interested in what other outs people use. If I perform Anate, I will sometimes preface it by this is the start of an experiment and if it does not hit go into something else (maybe Brown's Invisible Deal--a little risky because it is still not 100%). I just tell people that the Anate part was to get a feel for where they are coming from.

    I love these forces because when they hit, the reaction is unbelievable. Always looking for some good outs. Thanks
     
  19. #19 praetoritevong, Aug 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2009
    Brehaut, I don't mean to be disparaging or disrespectful when I say this, but I find that looking for outs is a general sign of someone who should be looking instead at learning another branch of magic.

    Let me clarify this. Outs are obviously a valuable tool used to bring an effect to a successful conclusion. There is a fine line however between outs used to successfully conclude the effect, and outs used to salvage misses. The latter is a symptom of that classical stereotype, the magician performing mental effects.

    A classic out I hear suggested is the invisible deck. But I don't really understand. If you give them a prediction card, and get them to go through a comparatively lengthy mental elimination process - why do you need an entire deck to reveal their prediction? Of course, you can always place the prediction card in your pocket, so that if it misses, they never know that it existed - but this weakens the effect so much! Part of the reason Invisible Deal Force is so powerful is because a card is given to them at the outset, and you are committed. This is one example of an out weakening an effect, in my opinion, rather than strengthening it (for an example of outs strengthening an effect to bring it to a successful close, see Seven in Bryn Reynold's The Safwan Papers).

    If one if afraid of risks - the fact that Invisible Deal is not 100%, whereas in reality it is as close to 100% as such a routine could possibly allow (I've missed once in the past one and a half years performing it) - then I think you miss the point of the routine and the beauty of these rare mentalism effects which do exist, and should take up another form of magic instead. Especially with this extreme form of mentalism, fear can't be a factor because your mindset will be wrong. It is, in effect, a complex version of a beginning magician who focusses solely on technical skill - there is an impasse created by his misguided view on magic which will ultimately stop him from improving.

    I perform both Invisible Deal and Invisible Deal Force regularly in my close up repertoire, and honestly speaking, on occasion it does miss. For Invisible deal force for example, I find that I hit anywhere between 90-95% of the time. 95% of the time I miss, they choose the King of Spades instead - which is close enough to be impressive. A small small percentage of the time, they choose something completely different (you can usually tell as soon as one part of the routine misses). In such an example, I honestly think you have to cop it. As I mentioned before, I've only ever missed once with Invisible Deal (the spectator spread the five cards out of order - ouch!) - and I was horrified. But honestly? It didn't mean much.

    Consider: Why are we afraid to take a risk?

    Because we're afraid of failure - failure makes us look bad, etc.

    But does it really?

    Failure is only an issue because we make it an issue - that is to say that failure is bad because we perceive failure to be bad. If we were to not consider failure a bad thing, but simply an outcome which is not favourable but not advantageous either, failure all of a sudden isn't such a big deal.

    Consider the notion for example that failure provides a sense of realism to a performance. I have certainly experienced this - failure amplifies my performance because it allows mentalism to transcend trickery.

    But again, this is only relevant if one is not a magician performing mental tricks.

    When it comes to psychological forces, simply put, I do not believe in the use of outs for the sake of having a safety net. An out will only be of use if it augments the effect in some way (as opposed to being a method to salvage a miss from another effect and leading into a second effect which will bring about a successful conclusion).
     
  20. Lots and lots of possibilities. i use 'Your Turn' (clean invisible deck effect) as an out.First I put the deck on the table or do I give the spectator the deck, then put the card i was about the force aside, the psychological force works and you can show that card, if not you point at the deck, tell them the deck was there all the time and you didn't touch it (they agree), open the deck, do the invisible sleight, let them go through the deck themselves and their card is turned over. i like to put the force card half in my backpocket above my shirt and when i didnt fail i put my hands up and turn around without saying anything.
     

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