"Segregation" in the Magic Community

When will people learned to live together as one happy family? The segregation in magic had really made me sad lately. Everytime I think about this subject, it hurt the art in me. Why hate? Why do we divide ourselves and call ourselves this and that such as: Mentalist, purest, etc. Why? Can someone please tell me? Why would you talk crap about other magic company? Their goal is to promote magic and make you a better magician. They are sweating bullet, devour themselves, and bleed hard to make you a better performer. How could you talk crap about them behind their back? For example, people on this forum always talks crap about Ellusionist (Don't wanna list any names here), and discourage other people by exaggeration, or even saying that they are bad without even naming a reason, because they know deep down in their heart that there are nothing wrong about that specific subject. They are just saying that crap about the subject because the person is asking inputs from one place to shop at another place? Segregation is not what magic is all about. We need to get rid of this thought. We are magician, not XCMer, not coin guy, not card guy, and not a purest. Stop diving the art, stop hating each other, it is time to come back together and form "MAGIC" as it meant to be.

If you disagree with me ,don't believe that Magic is not supposed to be whole, or do not have anything nice to say, then do not reply to this post. I don't wanna see your names, so I can avoid you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jul 10, 2010
277
0
30
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
Here are my thoughts. Firstly, there are a lot of magic companies that just want to get into your wallet and sell you poorly made products of crap. Not all magic companies are there to help you. There isn't exactly a segregation as it is a genre. No one says one type is better than the other (or at least they shouldn't). I, for example, HATE flourishing. I am not saying that I am above it or that magic is better, it's just an opinion. I am sure that there are flourishers out there who say being a magician is stupid as well. You can be an XCMer, coin guy, not a card guy, or purest. It's not them saying each other is better, it's just putting equal pieces into the puzzle. It is a whole, and without one of those pieces, the puzzle can't be complete. Just because I dislike a piece of the puzzle doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.
 
Sep 10, 2008
915
3
QLD, AUS
Firstly, It's not a problem unique to magic. You'll find this trend in almost every field.

Secondly, mentalism is NOT magic, it is almost completely divorced. Con artistry is closer to magic than mentalism is.

Thirdly, it's not the categorization that's a problem, it's the people in them. Categorization is necessary.
I'll say that again: Categorization is necessary.
If I label myself a "magician" opposed to "close up coin magician", what will happen if a client is looking for a card manipulator for a stage environment? Or if a student is looking for a teacher for parlour kids shows?

It's necessary.

Like, in the music industry, I hate the rivalry that occurs across different genres, but it's still extremely important that people label themselves pop/jazz/classical musicians.

To say that we should remove labels is warped.
The labels are not the problem. It's the people in them.

If you disagree with me or don't believe that Magic is not supposed to be whole, then do not reply to this post. I don't wanna see your names, so I can avoid you.

Grow up. You'll close your eyes to people trying to give you alternative viewpoints because you're happy in your ignorance? Seriously, grow up.
 
Jul 10, 2010
277
0
30
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
Firstly, It's not a problem unique to magic. You'll find this trend in almost every field.

Secondly, mentalism is NOT magic, it is almost completely divorced. Con artistry is closer to magic than mentalism is.

Thirdly, it's not the categorization that's a problem, it's the people in them. Categorization is necessary.
I'll say that again: Categorization is necessary.
If I label myself a "magician" opposed to "close up coin magician", what will happen if a client is looking for a card manipulator for a stage environment? Or if a student is looking for a teacher for parlour kids shows?

It's necessary.

Like, in the music industry, I hate the rivalry that occurs across different genres, but it's still extremely important that people label themselves pop/jazz/classical musicians.

To say that we should remove labels is warped.
The labels are not the problem. It's the people in them.



Grow up. You'll close your eyes to people trying to give you alternative viewpoints because you're happy in your ignorance? Seriously, grow up.

I agree with everything you said 100%.
 
Apr 5, 2009
874
1
29
Illinois
Firstly, It's not a problem unique to magic. You'll find this trend in almost every field.

Secondly, mentalism is NOT magic, it is almost completely divorced. Con artistry is closer to magic than mentalism is.

Thirdly, it's not the categorization that's a problem, it's the people in them. Categorization is necessary.
I'll say that again: Categorization is necessary.
If I label myself a "magician" opposed to "close up coin magician", what will happen if a client is looking for a card manipulator for a stage environment? Or if a student is looking for a teacher for parlour kids shows?

It's necessary.

Like, in the music industry, I hate the rivalry that occurs across different genres, but it's still extremely important that people label themselves pop/jazz/classical musicians.

To say that we should remove labels is warped.
The labels are not the problem. It's the people in them.



Grow up. You'll close your eyes to people trying to give you alternative viewpoints because you're happy in your ignorance? Seriously, grow up.

^^^win

couldn't have said it better.
 
First, XCM has about as much to do with magic as professional poker does. If groups form, and tend not to talk to each other, its because they don't specifically have anything they want to say to each other. Its not as if we all live on the same street. The internet (which is where I assume you mean for this to be happening) is not the same.
 
Firstly, It's not a problem unique to magic. You'll find this trend in almost every field.

Secondly, mentalism is NOT magic, it is almost completely divorced. Con artistry is closer to magic than mentalism is.

Thirdly, it's not the categorization that's a problem, it's the people in them. Categorization is necessary.
I'll say that again: Categorization is necessary.
If I label myself a "magician" opposed to "close up coin magician", what will happen if a client is looking for a card manipulator for a stage environment? Or if a student is looking for a teacher for parlour kids shows?

It's necessary.

Like, in the music industry, I hate the rivalry that occurs across different genres, but it's still extremely important that people label themselves pop/jazz/classical musicians.

To say that we should remove labels is warped.
The labels are not the problem. It's the people in them.



Grow up. You'll close your eyes to people trying to give you alternative viewpoints because you're happy in your ignorance? Seriously, grow up.

Please elaborate more about Mentalism is not magic, if you are really do have the art in you, you will make EVERYTHING magic. If technology is magic then why not mentalism?

SEGREGATION, is what am I talking about (those people who say I hate to be this or that). Did not I say anything against categorization, please do not put words in my mouth (love it how not all people think about that they read and some misunderstood the passage).


Grow up. You'll close your eyes to people trying to give you alternative viewpoints because you're happy in your ignorance? Seriously, grow up.

Please elaborate more about this point of view, this is exactly what I say about. You are right, the only thing I agreed w/ on your post is that the people are the problem. They say things without explaining (as stated in my original post). Why did you tell me to grow up? Who are you and what do you think you are to tell me such thing? Are you Slydini? Cardini? Dai Vernon? Your not even my mother; you are no one. Therefore your grow up advice will not be taken.
 
First, XCM has about as much to do with magic as professional poker does. If groups form, and tend not to talk to each other, its because they don't specifically have anything they want to say to each other. Its not as if we all live on the same street. The internet (which is where I assume you mean for this to be happening) is not the same.

That is why learn not to hate, I know many people out there and HERE hate combine XCM and magic together. This is why I wrote this thread. Why limited yourself, that is not what magic is all about. SEGREGATION study that word well and not do what it meant.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
I think the OP means his post well. I hope that it just came across wrong. Nonetheless, I also more or less agree with what TheatreHead is saying.

Yes, there is a lot of segregation. Yes, it sometimes hurts magic. But there are good, practical reasons why it occurs.

Taking for example the separation between magic and mentalism, yes, there is often an almost arrogant rift between the two elements. But the truth is that they are completely different to perform, as any serious mentalist would realise. This rift is a practical way of attempting to convey the size of this difference. What we have is a significant portion of magicians thinking that they are performing mentalism, when in reality they perform nothing but tricks. And the problem is this is that not only it is self-delusional, it weakens what you perform. You must understand the art before you can perform it. That is why this rift occurs. Mentalists are not performing magic. Although its roots are one and the same, the performance of mentalism, and therefore its perception, is wholly separate, and because of this, it must remain separate as a category.

To take one more example about magic companies, two companies I have criticised lately are Magic Makers (who regularly rip off products) and Hank Lee (who is perhaps the worst stocked "big" magic shop I've seen). Why be critical? The reality is that we live in a consumer driven world. A lot of magic shops are simply there to make a quick buck. One of my local brick and mortar ones is exactly like that. Criticism is a valid way to communicate a dealer's unethical and or disappointing aspects. Criticism is what brought the whole LJ discussion up on the board (which, although I'm prepared to eat my words on this, I find it highly likely that LJ will ever appear to face the music). Simple fact is, we should not be supportive of such dealers.

Since your post uses Ellusionist as an example, I will address that briefly. Many people do bash E. Yes, it's true. They also bash T11. But don't confuse bashing with criticism - there are many valid criticisms. Taking E for example, one sometimes hears that their communities are filled with newcomers to the magical world. I think this is a valid observation - valid too of T11. I count myself amongst these newcomers. I certainly don't blame people for that observation. The truth is, certain trends in the youth movement today have caused some pros cause for concern. You can't blame them for stepping back from the rush of newcomers, and opt instead only to teach those who are most gifted.

More to the point, one often hears criticism about E products. On the whole, I certainly agree. I consider Kard Klub the only useful E DVD I ever bought, because it dealt with presentation and things like timing - not just the secret of the trick. But I have reservations even about that. In it, Brad states that he prefers to approach spectators looking like an amateur so they expect less of him. I cannot express how ridiculous I find this advice. Why would you disadvantage yourself like that? Sure, people like Lennart Green make it work - but how many people are Lennart Green, and why would you give advice applicable only to 1 in 1000000 people? I also disagree with his philosophy on Ninja 1 about the pass. Showing people how the pass is done? I think that's absurd. The moment you talk about technique, much less actually show them technique, you are no longer performing magic. You may well still impress them - but not with magic. You can also impress them with juggling 6 balls simultaneously, or doing a backflip. Magic has lost what is so special about it - wonder.

I also disagree not only with Brad's philosophy on magic, but some of the way their products teach magic. When I say "I", I am implying here than many people share these (in my view) legitimate criticisms as well. E is poised in a very important part of the market - it is perhaps the biggest online magic store. Which means that it attracts a very high percentage of its profits from newbies. In other words, it has a key position in determining how that individual will go about exploring magic. The wrong choice will set them back a year or two. E would have a lot less criticisms if it focussed on teaching newcomers to the art about magic in the way for example that the Tarbell Course does. Unfortunately, the way that E is set up as a company (this is not a criticism per se, merely an observation based on the fact that they are a company) means that the very nature of their business is tempting people with products. Some products are better than others, and they run the gamut in terms of quality. But what it does do is mislead the newbie magician, and hinders their learning by feeding them tricks - which seems to be the order of the day in many of their DVDs - they teach you tricks, rather than how to be a magician. With the exception of Kard Klub, this is true of every E DVD I own.

I will stop here, because this post is not meant to be a critique of Ellusionist. I simply want to mention that your categorisation of criticism of E as exaggerated and baseless "crap" is sometimes true, but also, usually, "crap". There's more to it than you might realise. And whilst segregation does indeed have some downsides, in reality, there are a lot of practical benefits for dividing magicians from mentalists, companies from companies, and so forth.

Actually, I've written nothing that TheatreHead hasn't already written, so in closing, go back to his post.
 
I think the OP means his post well. I hope that it just came across wrong. Nonetheless, I also more or less agree with what TheatreHead is saying.

Yes, there is a lot of segregation. Yes, it sometimes hurts magic. But there are good, practical reasons why it occurs.

Taking for example the separation between magic and mentalism, yes, there is often an almost arrogant rift between the two elements. But the truth is that they are completely different to perform, as any serious mentalist would realise. This rift is a practical way of attempting to convey the size of this difference. What we have is a significant portion of magicians thinking that they are performing mentalism, when in reality they perform nothing but tricks. And the problem is this is that not only it is self-delusional, it weakens what you perform. You must understand the art before you can perform it. That is why this rift occurs. Mentalists are not performing magic. Although its roots are one and the same, the performance of mentalism, and therefore its perception, is wholly separate, and because of this, it must remain separate as a category.

To take one more example about magic companies, two companies I have criticised lately are Magic Makers (who regularly rip off products) and Hank Lee (who is perhaps the worst stocked "big" magic shop I've seen). Why be critical? The reality is that we live in a consumer driven world. A lot of magic shops are simply there to make a quick buck. One of my local brick and mortar ones is exactly like that. Criticism is a valid way to communicate a dealer's unethical and or disappointing aspects. Criticism is what brought the whole LJ discussion up on the board (which, although I'm prepared to eat my words on this, I find it highly likely that LJ will ever appear to face the music). Simple fact is, we should not be supportive of such dealers.

Since your post uses Ellusionist as an example, I will address that briefly. Many people do bash E. Yes, it's true. They also bash T11. But don't confuse bashing with criticism - there are many valid criticisms. Taking E for example, one sometimes hears that their communities are filled with newcomers to the magical world. I think this is a valid observation - valid too of T11. I count myself amongst these newcomers. I certainly don't blame people for that observation. The truth is, certain trends in the youth movement today have caused some pros cause for concern. You can't blame them for stepping back from the rush of newcomers, and opt instead only to teach those who are most gifted.

More to the point, one often hears criticism about E products. On the whole, I certainly agree. I consider Kard Klub the only useful E DVD I ever bought, because it dealt with presentation and things like timing - not just the secret of the trick. But I have reservations even about that. In it, Brad states that he prefers to approach spectators looking like an amateur so they expect less of him. I cannot express how ridiculous I find this advice. Why would you disadvantage yourself like that? Sure, people like Lennart Green make it work - but how many people are Lennart Green, and why would you give advice applicable only to 1 in 1000000 people? I also disagree with his philosophy on Ninja 1 about the pass. Showing people how the pass is done? I think that's absurd. The moment you talk about technique, much less actually show them technique, you are no longer performing magic. You may well still impress them - but not with magic. You can also impress them with juggling 6 balls simultaneously, or doing a backflip. Magic has lost what is so special about it - wonder.

I also disagree not only with Brad's philosophy on magic, but some of the way their products teach magic. When I say "I", I am implying here than many people share these (in my view) legitimate criticisms as well. E is poised in a very important part of the market - it is perhaps the biggest online magic store. Which means that it attracts a very high percentage of its profits from newbies. In other words, it has a key position in determining how that individual will go about exploring magic. The wrong choice will set them back a year or two. E would have a lot less criticisms if it focussed on teaching newcomers to the art about magic in the way for example that the Tarbell Course does. Unfortunately, the way that E is set up as a company (this is not a criticism per se, merely an observation based on the fact that they are a company) means that the very nature of their business is tempting people with products. Some products are better than others, and they run the gamut in terms of quality. But what it does do is mislead the newbie magician, and hinders their learning by feeding them tricks - which seems to be the order of the day in many of their DVDs - they teach you tricks, rather than how to be a magician. With the exception of Kard Klub, this is true of every E DVD I own.

I will stop here, because this post is not meant to be a critique of Ellusionist. I simply want to mention that your categorisation of criticism of E as exaggerated and baseless "crap" is sometimes true, but also, usually, "crap". There's more to it than you might realise. And whilst segregation does indeed have some downsides, in reality, there are a lot of practical benefits for dividing magicians from mentalists, companies from companies, and so forth.

Actually, I've written nothing that TheatreHead hasn't already written, so in closing, go back to his post.

The reason that I wrote the original post is to wake up the victims in this decade from their ethernal slumber and change the point of view of new commer. I am sick and tired of jaming with people who are segregated themselve to true magic, and the worst part is that they are muliplying every minute as we are judging my post.
 
Here are my thoughts. Firstly, there are a lot of magic companies that just want to get into your wallet and sell you poorly made products of crap. Not all magic companies are there to help you. There isn't exactly a segregation as it is a genre. No one says one type is better than the other (or at least they shouldn't). I, for example, HATE flourishing. I am not saying that I am above it or that magic is better, it's just an opinion. I am sure that there are flourishers out there who say being a magician is stupid as well. You can be an XCMer, coin guy, not a card guy, or purest. It's not them saying each other is better, it's just putting equal pieces into the puzzle. It is a whole, and without one of those pieces, the puzzle can't be complete. Just because I dislike a piece of the puzzle doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

By far, there are big companies like T11, and E, and Penquin. They are great companies, this is where people should shop because they are reliable. If you go to no name brand and buy their stuff, then what do you expect? This is common scene, learn from your mistake. Its like going to swap meet and expect to always buying good things. But essentially this is not am I talking about. I am not talking about poor quality seller. I am talking about people just talk crap about other company even though it is a good company. Really, what good does it make?

I agreed with you about every branch of magic is a piece of a big picture. Looking at a big picture with a missing piece of art is very sad and annoying. Therefore, we need to stop this segregation and reunite as whole once again. Other people will look at us with respect.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
The reason that I wrote the original post is to wake up the victims in this decade from their ethernal slumber and change the point of view of new commer. I am sick and tired of jaming with people who are segregated themselve to true magic, and the worst part is that they are muliplying every minute as we are judging my post.

An ethically sound reply (read: two and a half lines of generalised, vague waffle), that unfortunately says absolutely nothing and makes no attempt to engage with my criticism of your argument.

You were questioning TheatreHead on things like why magic is different from mentalism for example - this is why.
 
Oct 20, 2008
273
0
Austin, TX area
When will people learned to live together as one happy family? The segregation in magic had really made me sad lately. Everytime I think about this subject, it hurt the art in me. Why hate?

Ah well. Here I go.

Anyone can be a self-proclaimed expert on the Internet. One of the easiest ways to prove your expertise is to point out flaws in others - whether they exist or not.

There is also the very human condition which, for some reason, seems to dictate that "everyone better be just like me, or else!" Which, to be honest, would mean a forum full of identical performers. Be it magic or musicianship or web design. The closer the crowd is to getting their drivers' licenses, the more driven they will be to act like the Final Word on the topic.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Please elaborate more about Mentalism is not magic, if you are really do have the art in you, you will make EVERYTHING magic. If technology is magic then why not mentalism?

Read my above post. In brief, it is due to the nature of mentalism, and its perception by audiences that necessitates a different approach.

SEGREGATION, is what am I talking about (those people who say I hate to be this or that). Did not I say anything against categorization, please do not put words in my mouth (love it how not all people think about that they read and some misunderstood the passage).

Unfortunately, you may have used the word segregation, but a large part of your post deals with categorisation - with the exception of a waffly explanation of why hating is bad.

Please elaborate more about this point of view, this is exactly what I say about. You are right, the only thing I agreed w/ on your post is that the people are the problem. They say things without explaining (as stated in my original post). Why did you tell me to grow up? Who are you and what do you think you are to tell me such thing? Are you Slydini? Cardini? Dai Vernon? Your not even my mother; you are no one. Therefore your grow up advice will not be taken.

You are coming across as a small child. You essentially said that you will not accept anyone's view that is contrary to yours. If you cannot see the problem with this, then I'm happy to ignore this thread from now on and dismiss you as an unimportant mediocrity. If, on the other hand, you are posting because you have a genuine passion for the art, then it is in no-one's interest to close yourself off from other perspectives. So my question is...

Why?

Are you so afraid of being wrong? Or is it simply that you cannot consider an alternate point of view? Either way, your attitude is one of childish ignorance. Why even bother posting, if you're not willing to consider any other opinions?

And how is saying "I do not care about anyone else's opinion if they disagree with me" any different from "I hate Ellusionist (and I do not care about anyone else's opinion to the contrary)"? It's not. You are nothing more than a hypocrite with a cardboard box to stand on.

It is also riddled with logical fallacies.

Just because someone is not Dai Vernon does not mean that they are not correct. I am nobody in the magical community - but it doesn't mean that everything I say is wrong. Although, if you are seriously considering that line of argument, then I say that because you are nobody, then your opinion is irrelevant. Have it either way - unfortunately, if you refuse to engage with the argument, you're still wrong.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mar 28, 2010
36
0
Maryland
By far, there are big companies like T11, and E, and Penquin. They are great companies, this is where people should shop because they are reliable. If you go to no name brand and buy their stuff, then what do you expect?

I don't see very many books on any of those sites (except penguin)..... no name brand magic shops are where you find the good stuff... and the people with experience. Just my opinion...
 
Ah well. Here I go.

Anyone can be a self-proclaimed expert on the Internet. One of the easiest ways to prove your expertise is to point out flaws in others - whether they exist or not.

There is also the very human condition which, for some reason, seems to dictate that "everyone better be just like me, or else!" Which, to be honest, would mean a forum full of identical performers. Be it magic or musicianship or web design. The closer the crowd is to getting their drivers' licenses, the more driven they will be to act like the Final Word on the topic.

FYI If any TV company invite me to speak on TV, I would say exactly the same as I said now in this thread. In the matter of fact I would love to do it so I can wake up some knuckle head in this decade. I appreciate your theory about everyone will be doing the same thing, but I will guarantee you that wont happens.
 
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