Serious complaint regarding Victoria by Zach

Discussion in 'The Marketplace' started by MarkH, Dec 10, 2012.

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  1. A friend of mine purchased Zach Mueller's Victoria and showed me a bit of the end of the product which he thought was extremely inappropriate and I agree to the fullest. Zach says the following: "I want to thank you for purchasing it. If you did not purchase this [...] I hope you get cancer. Just kidding, that's an awful thing.. to say.". I am seriously shocked and upset by this and therefore support this Facebook post about it to the fullest.

    A smaller issue that I haven't and can't personally confirm but I trust my friend enough as for this, is that the product contains several pieces of copyright infringing material. The theory11 terms of service regarding The Wire forbid this so if it's true, that is something else to take care of.

    I really doubt someone from theory11 other than Zach himself has judged this product before it hit The Wire.
  2. He is an immature child. What do you expect? Just watch any of his videos to see how awkward, not funny, and fake his personality is. His fake, low pitch to high pitch voice changes and awkward facial expressions throughout each video makes it annoying and just sad to watch. His video series needs to go away just like the insider, or have a host that isn't so fake.
  3. This is escalating quickly.......
  4. As far as I can see, your only valid complaint here is that the product may infringe someone's copyright. You're kind of confusing the issue with this cancer-joke thing. While you're quite welcome to your own opinion, no-one is in a position to dictate a "correct" boundary for taste in humour. You might find what Zach said funny, or you might not. You're neither right nor wrong. Complaining that someone's sense of humour isn't the same as yours is like complaining that someone used blue-backed cards when you prefer red.
  5. It has nothing to do with anyone's taste of humor, it has to do with the irresponsible usage of a terrible disease many people suffer from. If he would've said "I hope you die", I don't think anyone would've had any reason to mention it, even if that would have been a bad joke.
  6. Ridiculous. Lots of people suffer from death. More, in fact, than suffer from cancer. I think it demonstrates how skewed your thinking is that you think a joke about death is less offensive than one about cancer. Zach did not irresponsibly use a disease, he used a word for the purposes of comic exaggeration. No one died. Or got cancer.
  7. You know what? I GUARUNTEE that every single person who reads this or watches that video will die someday. If we live long enough, we will all get cancer, it's in the air. It's the number 1 cause of death. If you have a problem with a disease or dying, go talk to God, but until then... Go live your life. Don't get offended by something you can't control
  8. #8 MarkH, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
    You apparently don't know anyone who suffers or has suffered from cancer for that you do not seem to realize how much worse that is than to suffer an "average" death. To say no one died, likely and hopefully not while watching that video, no. To say no one got cancer, you really don't know about that. Cancer strikes one in two men, one in three women.

    People like myself are not upset about it for no reason, they realize how irresponsible and hurtful it is and could be, him mentioning it as such.

    I agree that death would not be much better though, but at least it would not carry the by-default-painful-and-intense-suffering-value like cancer.
  9. OK, let me put this simply. I don't think it's irresponsible and hurtful. Are you saying that your opinion is, by default, more valid than mine?
  10. Actually my grandfather died from cancer night before last... His blood disease turned into leukemia over time, but he never smoked once in his life. Saying that "I hope you get cancer" is the same as saying "I hope you die".... We're all going to die. It's a part of life. I'm not offended by it, and neither should anyone else be. Everyone suffers... It's the way things work in this world. Life sucks and then you die
  11. #11 MarkH, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
    No, but just like you, I am quite obviously not the only one with that opinion so it might very well be something to take into consideration. I find it irresponsible, people on several forums and the ConvincingControl Facebook page find it irresponsible, so are you saying your opinion is more valid than mine and theirs then? Every opinion counts and to each their own.
  12. Sorry, I'm obviously not being clear enough. I'm not the one complaining about something, therefore I'm not the one making any special claims as to the validity of my opinion.The only reason I'm even talking about it is to ensure that it's not only the most offended people (i.e., the most sensitive to offence, and therefore the people with the least sense of perspective on these matters) who have their voice heard.

    The post on FB says, "For them [Theory11] to allow such a thing on their platform is by any means unacceptable", which implies that, unless Theory11 shares their and your boundaries of taste in humour, they are, de facto, wrong. That is the point on which I feel you overreach your purview. Feel free to express your opinion, but just don't think you have some kind of right for people to pay attention to you.
  13. #13 MarkH, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
    Here in the Netherlands, we call names and curse with diseases, cancer included. We are known as the rudest and least-sensitive people on the planet. Still, I am offended by Zach's usage of the word in its context.

    I do get your point a little better now, but then again, the ConvincingControl actually posts things looking at company's responsibilities and I guess they may mean that if theory11 wants to keep their and The Wire's status high, it might be something they would want to filter besides the copyright infringing if only to make sure a couple of customers wouldn't be offended by it.

    You would make a decent dictator I have to to add. What happened to democracy in which everyone has the rights of an own voice and opinion, and the rights to be heard?
  14. #14 TeeDee, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012're calling for censorship, I'm arguing for freedom of speech and you say I'm like a dictator? It's interesting how situations can be interpreted so very differently. It's almost like we all perceive the world in subjective ways and should, therefore, all be entitled to express ourselves however we want, even if that includes making jokes about cancer.

    Anyway, I'm a libertarian anarchist, so I have no desire to stop you having your voice and opinion. If someone posted on this thread saying that you shouldn't be allowed to express your views on Zach's joke, I'd be defending your right to free expression to my last breath. It just so happens that, at this juncture, you're the one arguing for censorship.
  15. I'm actually calling for respect and thoughtfulness. Just because there is freedom of speech and because you can, doesn't mean you should be rude and offend anyone at anytime possible, don't you think? Though that's not the case here, it could have been.

    The statement "just don't think you have some kind of right for people to pay attention to you" is conflicting with being a libertarian anarchist, don't you think? Sure, it's a liberal opinion, just like my opinion of that statement belonging to a dictator. Sorry for behaving alike. Jeez, haha.
  16. You are making the logical fallacy that so many make in democratic cultures.. and it is something that I really think is ruining many democratic societies. Or at the least harming them. We all have the right to freedom, of speech, religion, beliefs, values, all of that. What we do not have, is the right to restrict other peoples freedoms. If zack's work offends you, avoid it. Lesson learned. I completely agree that it was stupid, irresponsible, and immature to say what he said. However, he has every right in the world to say it. The only person who lost anything by saying it was him, because by offending people like you he is shortening his own customer base. For some reason Mark, I feel like you might want to quote my last sentence and tell me "what about all those who have lost loved ones to cancer?" or something along those lines. Him saying that, caused neither you, nor anyone else in the world, to have cancer. His words only effect your life as much as you let them. If you take offence at what he has to say, its your fault for continuing to listen.

    Theory11 was fairly explicit about this, anything and everything that goes on the wire is the work of the artists themselves. Those products do not represent the beliefs, opinions, or values of the Theory11 team. So long as it has application, and it isn't copyrighted, they will post it. As in any free market, the invisible hand is what dictates what is and what is not okay for artists to post to the wire. As I said earlier, if too many are offended by this, people will stop buying his products, and his humor will be forgotten. Theory11 has no responsibility to ensure that their material is non-offensive. It is your responsibility to avoid people you find offensive.

    As you can probably tell, I hate people that are easily offended. Also, the Dutch are not known for being the rudest and least sensitive people by any means. The rudest title belongs to the French, and the least sensitive the Japanese. In fact, the Dutch are known for being tolerant and liberal minded, which goes quite against your opinions in this thread.

    At the end of the day, I completely agree with you mark. He should not have said that. I just cannot stand it when people try to get something removed because it is offensive. Everyone should be free to be as offensive as they want, and suffer the consequences of it.

    As to the copyright claim, I do not know his exact method so I cannot be sure. However, I have seen so many variations on this move with my scant amount of resources, that I find it difficult to believe that it has not been published before. Difficult, but not impossible.
  17. Oh dear.
    Mark, as you know, I agree with you here.
    Humour? Maybe, but Zach seemed pretty serious about it until the last minute (or so I've heard..)
    I think we can all agree that cancer is a bad disease. A very bad one at that. I've had family members and people I am close to be affected greatly or even die from cancer and it's not easy.
    Considering the amount of youth in magic today, and I'm talking very young (under 10) they may look up to Zach as a role model- the cool, good magician. They may take this cancer joke on board and end up seriously offended someone. Trust me, it could easily happen. What if someone who has cancer, terminally maybe, was watching the download? I doubt they'd be too happy.

    I'm just saying, OK, it's only a joke. But surely we can all agree that some things are better left unsaid. And this is one of those things.
  18. I think the right to offend people is one of the most valuable commodities a free society has. As you say though, this doesn't seem to be offence for offence's sake. It was offence (if, indeed, anyone was actually offended) in the pursuit of making a joke. A funny joke? No. But that's the worst crime that's been committed here: Someone made a joke that wasn't very funny. There is no moral aspect to it. I consider it to be morally wrong to restrict someone's freedom of speech. Therefore, any attempt to censor this or future material is far more abhorrent than releasing a magic DVD which contained nothing but jokes about AIDS, cancer and child rape.

    And in answer to your second question, I don't believe in enforced rights. I believe in natural rights. If I wake up one morning with a brilliant idea that, say, everyone should have their roof painted green, I have the right to express that idea, but everyone else has the right to ignore me and carry on with their day. It's the same in this case. You have the right to say you don't like jokes about cancer, and everyone else has the right to pay no attention to you whatsoever.
  19. Thanks for clearing it up, Tyler. I apologize if I have given the impression that I'm all up for censorship. As said and shown in my previous post, that's not the case at all. I do think that theory11 could get their image damaged for hosting this product though, plus that Zach is actually working for them. I really wonder if any other theory11 employee watched the product before it went live.

    The copyright infringing apparently are a couple of short clips taken directly from TV. Theory11 could not have approved that. Not so much talking about the originality of the move, which as you said is extremely doubtful.

    And Tom, guess we're the same as for that then. I just made use of my rights to express my idea on this. :)
  20. It's been a pleasure debating with you sir! I understand where you're coming from completely and I don't think we're too dissimilar in opinion at the root of things.

    (Oh, by the way, it's Tom, not Tyler!)
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