"Stealing" routines

[guiguimanu]

I just wanted to know peoples opinions on this. Do you consider it okay to take someones routine and use it?

for example i was watching cyril and i really like his cigarette routine. Lets say i would figure out a way of peforming a routine which looks exactly like his, is this ethically wrong or frowned upon in the magic community?

 

[Sleight_of_Hand]

I reckon its ok if you acknowledge the author in a video or when talking to other magicians about your routine. I Use cyrils DEJAVU patter for my ACR as it works with my finale( deck jumps back into box, except for chosen card), and when I talk about the routine and patter i always tell magicians its made by cyril(the patter).

 

[Dylan P.]

This si fine as long as you are giving credit to the inventor. I like to use my own twists in tricks though. For example in my ACR for my finale I have their signed card dissapear from the deck and wind up folded in their pocket.

 

[joerng]

I never thought of a routine as something that could be stolen. However, I guess if you created your routine and the patter around it, so it works, and someone uses it to the letter it would kinda low of them. As far as a routine I always figured that just to be the order that someone puts the effects that they do in. The patter I think needs to be yours, built around your style and your life experiences.

Just a thought.
Joe

PS: what has always worked for me is to build a patter chart. This was taught to me by a guy I meat in the army that worked his way through college doing magic on the street and in restaurant's. if you want to see how it works PM me it really is kinda neat.

 

[Brad Henderson]

If you see someone perform a trick, then the right thing to do ALWAYS is to ask permission to perform it.

I know a lot of people disagree with this, but I think most have not been on the other side of the fence.

Many magicians believe that magic should be unique, special. They spend thousands of dollars and hours trying to find/create material that sets them apart. That is their right, and it impacts their bottom line artistically and professionally.

When someone comes along and takes that from them, they are doing damage. They may not realize it - after all, their act just expanded - but very rarely do they ask the person they took from.

If you see something you like, it is normal to want to think about it. It's normal to want to do it.

But taking it is wrong. If you get a reputation for doing that, you will be shunned. People will not share with you. At Magic Live, one very well known magician was totally excluded from a conversation because the people involved did not feel he is to be trusted. If you knew the dynamic, it was funny to watch - and sad, both at the same time. But that's the reputation he has, and he has to live with it.

If you see something you like, ask 'why?' What is it about it that you like? Is it that it gave the performer a chance to interact with the audience member? Well, find a trick that does that, but is different? Did you like the fact that the trick really fooled you? That's easy. Buy some good books and I guarantee you will find foolers for your audience.

Here's the question I ask myself. Is what I am doing going to make more more like another performer, or more different? If it makes me more like them, I am doing both of us a disservice. If it sets me a part, then not only are we both better off, but so is magic.

Taking the fruits of another person's labors is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a trick you can figure out, or if you happen to know where it is in print. If you see someone else do it, and you want to do it - ASK. ASK. ASK.

Brad Henderson

 

[guiguimanu]

thanks for all the feedback guys.

just wanted to clear up that the cigarette routine that iam refering to actually has no patter (or maybe it did but he was speaking japanese so i didnt understand a word) so when i said take his routine i mean the way he structured it in terms of order of sleights, vanishes and productions.

If i do end up using this then i will definately make my own patter and my own presentation, no doubt about that, i find its always important to mould an effect to your character.

 

[guiguimanu]

If you see someone perform a trick, then the right thing to do ALWAYS is to ask permission to perform it.

I know a lot of people disagree with this, but I think most have not been on the other side of the fence.

Many magicians believe that magic should be unique, special. They spend thousands of dollars and hours trying to find/create material that sets them apart. That is their right, and it impacts their bottom line artistically and professionally.

When someone comes along and takes that from them, they are doing damage. They may not realize it - after all, their act just expanded - but very rarely do they ask the person they took from.

If you see something you like, it is normal to want to think about it. It's normal to want to do it.

But taking it is wrong. If you get a reputation for doing that, you will be shunned. People will not share with you. At Magic Live, one very well known magician was totally excluded from a conversation because the people involved did not feel he is to be trusted. If you knew the dynamic, it was funny to watch - and sad, both at the same time. But that's the reputation he has, and he has to live with it.

If you see something you like, ask 'why?' What is it about it that you like? Is it that it gave the performer a chance to interact with the audience member? Well, find a trick that does that, but is different? Did you like the fact that the trick really fooled you? That's easy. Buy some good books and I guarantee you will find foolers for your audience.

Here's the question I ask myself. Is what I am doing going to make more more like another performer, or more different? If it makes me more like them, I am doing both of us a disservice. If it sets me a part, then not only are we both better off, but so is magic.

Taking the fruits of another person's labors is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a trick you can figure out, or if you happen to know where it is in print. If you see someone else do it, and you want to do it - ASK. ASK. ASK.

Brad Henderson

i agree with you completely however i am not planning on taking stealing someones effect or trick, i am just planning on using the particular way cyril structured his cigarette vanishes and productions.

I personally don't consider it to be wrong because it is not an effect or a new sleight, all the sleights used in this are known to the magic world, cyril just put all these sleights together to make a very smooth routine. I do understand what you mean though and perhaps asking him would be a good idea, but i would have to find out how to cantact him first

 

[Brad Henderson]

And all the notes in a scale existed long before any composer put them in any order.

Lance Burton's act consists of dove steal,s card manip, and some candle moves. Nothing really new there, but do you think it would be considered artistically, ethically, or commercially smart to replicate those in the order in which he composed them?

The moves do exist and have existed, but yet Cyril was the one who put them together in a way that made you take notice. That was his work, not yours. That was his effort, not yours. That is his routine, not yours.

If anything, taking a finished product is far worse than lifting a sleight. The audience is not aware of a sleight. But if the audience were to see his routine and yours, they would see the similarity.

Think of it this way.

Let's say you put together a killer routine of card moves, fans, and color changes. You got known in your community for this sequence. People applauded you for it. People paid you to come perform it for them.

Then someone in your home town copies it. The moves aren't yours. The idea of a card routine like that isn't yours. So, how would you feel?

How would you feel if someone in your school or town lifted what you were doing - the thing you may have spent years putting together?

Somehow, I don't think you would be so cavalier.

If you have access to the moves, put them together in an order that is YOU not Cyril. We already have a Cyril. We don't need another one.

If I want to see Cyril's magic, I'll go watch Cyril. He'll do it better than anyone else.

I want to see YOUR magic. Your audience wants to see YOUR magic.

Brad

 

[Ben Long]

The way I've always thought about it is that magicians are like concert pianists.

They don't necessarily compose their own pieces, in fact, they almost exclusively play other people's pieces, but each has his or her own style, his or her own stage presence.

It's the same with magicians. We perform other people's material, but we're still artists.

As far as learning another routine just by looking at somebody else perform it, I again would compare that to piano. You can pick up a piece by ear and try to learn it, but it may not be as good as if you bought the sheet music and learned it from square one.

Also, when I perform, I don't try to be like Fred Kaps or Ricky Jay. I may do similar tricks, but I perform them like Ben Long. I make my own jokes, sometimes even do my own handling. I makes one feel more artistic.

You need to bring something to the table yourself.

 

[Brad Henderson]

But as a musician, the selection of your material and the order in which you play it says something about you - it MAKES the concert. If one concert pianist went around copying the programs of another, you can bet there would be some unhappy people out there. When you consider how much music/magic there is in the world, there is no reason to do stuff you've seen someone else do.

 

[Ben Long]

But as a musician, the selection of your material and the order in which you play it says something about you - it MAKES the concert. If one concert pianist went around copying the programs of another, you can bet there would be some unhappy people out there. When you consider how much music/magic there is in the world, there is no reason to do stuff you've seen someone else do.

Right, so as a magician, one might do a trick that Ricky Jay does, but he or she wouldn't do every routine in the set as one that Ricky Jay did. Two pianists are allowed to play the same piano concerto, but wouldn't necessarily play all of the same pieces as each other.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Not exactly.

First, if the trick is Ricky's, then it's hands off. No iff's and's or but's. Doesn't matter if it's one trick or one line.

Second, even if the trick isn't Ricky's, but if it's associated with him, then it's hands off.

You might remember the recent tiff over just this issue stemming from another's performances off Broadway.

Third, and this is the one that upsets so many people, if the reason you want to perform the routine is because you saw Ricky do it, then it's hands off.

Let's not fall into the trap of arguing analogies. Magic and music are different arts. There are similarities, but they are different. If two pianists both performed the Waldstein concerto (a classic) no one would think much of it. Real people know it was written by Beethoven. However, if two magicians perform the same trick, they are likely to think one was doing the others - that the other was less clever, less creative, or less artistic. Magic is about being unique. That is something magical artists value. When you do something that makes the other guy less unique, less special, less magical, you are taking something from them. If you want to take that from them - ask.

Now, if you happen to find, through your own work and research, a trick that you develop and THEN discover happens to be in Ricky's act, then you would have a right to perform that trick. Of course, many people claim this is what they did, yet when you look at their work you see similarities to the other person so striking that it would take a very credulous person to believe it wasn't a rip off.

If you see another magician do a trick, and that makes you want to do it, then the right thing to do is ask. Always ask. Always, always, always.

Finally, the approach you seem to be advocating is maybe even worse than being a clone of another performer. It encourages someone to use other's acts as a smorgasboard. A little Ricky here, a little Malone there.

It is a recipe for disaster.

Your magic will never come through if it doesn't come from you.

The question I posed earlier is a good litmus test: Are you doing something to be more like another performer, or different from another performer.

If it's to be more like them, then maybe a different path is the wiser course of action.

Brad

 

[Ben Long]

Yes, I agree that certain metaphors will only go so far.

The thing is though, Ricky Jay performs a version of Dream of Aces, as well as Vernon's 3CM. He does his own beautiful handling of both that I would never dream to recreate.

I wouldn't try to use his presentation, but if I know Dream of Aces, there should be nothing wrong with me performing it, right?

I mean, yeah, one should always, no matter what, be informed about what they are performing, but nothing is wrong with me seeing David Blaine do a 2CM and wanting to learn how to do it.

Am I wrong?

 

[Brad Henderson]

Well, at the risk of sounding pedantic, Ricky does not perform the Dream of Aces. The routine he performs is a variation of the original which predates "Dream" by many, many years. Ricky's offering is a combination of this idea with the patter from Erdnase.

If one were to perform the combination of McDonald's Aces with the Erdnase patter, you would be ethically and artistically in the wrong. If you were to perform any ace assembly with the Erdnase patter because you saw Ricky do it, you would be ethically and artistically in the wrong. If you had never heard of Ricky, read The Exclusive Coterie, and performed it because it appealed to you - then you would be fine ethically, but it would be an unwise move commercially and artistically as you would be performing something VERY similar to the established work of another.

Now, if you happen to find Dream of Aces at your magic shop, and you buy it and perform it as is, there is nothing at all wrong with that. If you were to begin researching Ace Assemblies and picked one for your use, there would be nothing wrong with that. The Ace Assembly is truly a classic effect with hundreds of variations. Ideally, if the reason your pursued that was because of Ricky, you are on shaky ground, but as a card worker you WILL encounter this plot sometime and it is reasonable to want to explore it independent of Ricky's work and influence.

As to the Three Card Monte, it comes down to your motivation. Though it is a classic routine, if the true and honest reason you want to perform it is because of Ricky then I personally feel you are not on ethical ground. So many times there are amazing tricks sitting right on our shelves, but we never think about practicing them until we see someone else do them. That is taking away from their work, their vision and their uniqueness. I feel that is wrong.

Now, if you happen to have been studying Vernon, learned the routine, and then found out that Ricky killed with it, you are on perfectly fine territory. The routine is a classic, the plot is a classic, and there is nothing so associated with Ricky about that routine (like his marriage of McDonald's with Erdnase) as to prevent someone from using it without being seen as a clone or copy. Now, if you lifted his script....

As to Blaine and Fechter's Be Honest, What is It, I disagree. If the reason you wanted to learn the trick is because of him, and not your own research and discover, then you are trading on his work. You are "copying" and no matter how tempting it is, in the long run, it is wrong.

Ultimately it is about your motivation. Ultimately only you know why you want to perform a trick. But then again, art is about these issues and explorations. It's not about being the magic police, it's about being true to your own vision and respecting the vision and work of others.



Brad Henderson

 

[Ben Long]

Well, at the risk of sounding pedantic, Ricky does not perform the Dream of Aces. The routine he performs is a variation of the original which predates "Dream" by many, many years. Ricky's offering is a combination of this idea with the patter from Erdnase.

If one were to perform the combination of McDonald's Aces with the Erdnase patter, you would be ethically and artistically in the wrong. If you were to perform any ace assembly with the Erdnase patter because you saw Ricky do it, you would be ethically and artistically in the wrong. If you had never heard of Ricky, read The Exclusive Coterie, and performed it because it appealed to you - then you would be fine ethically, but it would be an unwise move commercially and artistically as you would be performing something VERY similar to the established work of another.

Now, if you happen to find Dream of Aces at your magic shop, and you buy it and perform it as is, there is nothing at all wrong with that. If you were to begin researching Ace Assemblies and picked one for your use, there would be nothing wrong with that. The Ace Assembly is truly a classic effect with hundreds of variations. Ideally, if the reason your pursued that was because of Ricky, you are on shaky ground, but as a card worker you WILL encounter this plot sometime and it is reasonable to want to explore it independent of Ricky's work and influence.

As to the Three Card Monte, it comes down to your motivation. Though it is a classic routine, if the true and honest reason you want to perform it is because of Ricky then I personally feel you are not on ethical ground. So many times there are amazing tricks sitting right on our shelves, but we never think about practicing them until we see someone else do them. That is taking away from their work, their vision and their uniqueness. I feel that is wrong.

Now, if you happen to have been studying Vernon, learned the routine, and then found out that Ricky killed with it, you are on perfectly fine territory. The routine is a classic, the plot is a classic, and there is nothing so associated with Ricky about that routine (like his marriage of McDonald's with Erdnase) as to prevent someone from using it without being seen as a clone or copy. Now, if you lifted his script....

As to Blaine and Fechter's Be Honest, What is It, I disagree. If the reason you wanted to learn the trick is because of him, and not your own research and discover, then you are trading on his work. You are "copying" and no matter how tempting it is, in the long run, it is wrong.

Ultimately it is about your motivation. Ultimately only you know why you want to perform a trick. But then again, art is about these issues and explorations. It's not about being the magic police, it's about being true to your own vision and respecting the vision and work of others.



Brad Henderson

I'm not saying that one should steal patter and presentation. That's probably the worst thing you can do as a magician. People work hard for good presentations.

I personally see nothing wrong with being inspired by another to learn something. In fact, I feel that it's the basis for a lot of good material. Inspiration comes from a lot of different places.

 

[Brad Henderson]

But what is the line between inspiration and theft? I might like your new TV and be inspired to take it back to my house!!!

Again, let's go back to my central question:

Does it lead you to be different from another performer? Then it is probably inspiration.

Does it lead you to be more similar to another performer? Then it is probably theft.

 

[PlethZorb]

Honestly, I think its fine. But if you want to be original, devise your own devious routines.

 

[Ben Long]

Well, if you like my new TV, you might be inspired to go out to Best Buy and get a digital 30" flat screen with Dolby Digital surround sound behemoth.

So what am I talking about? Has it ever happened to you that you saw something so cool that you just wanted to do something just as cool and ended up making something better? If you say no, stop lying.

I mean, why do most people get into magic? It seems that they either say Blaine or Copperfield or somebody and wanted to do what they did.

Check out the 1-on-1 section and look at "Commercial." Here's what it says:

Learn THE effect that sparked Dan and Dave’s interest in Card Magic. David Blaine performed this effect during a Commercial (hence the title) for his 'Street Magic' TV Special.

If you've seen the original, it's similar, only with less flare. Dan and Dave took something and made it original. It seems as simple as that.

I'd chalk that up to inspiration...

 

[DannyT]

I won't share my views on learning tricks that were revealed from some joe shmo, but when it comes to stealing a routine I'll say this.

Make it your own routine.
Be yourself.
I have spoke to a magician at my school and as soon I asked to see a trick from him, Bam, was a totally different guy. I thought that he had split personalities or something.

It's not only important to learn your magic, but to grow into your magic.
Don't try to be someone your not.

 

[Brad Henderson]

I have done many things that I am proud of, and many things I regret. When I was a kid, I could perform DC's dancing cane routines, move by move, to the music. I am ashamed of that. When I was in High School I lifted a lot of lines from a performer I wanted so badly to be. They were old lines, but I learned them from him. You have no idea how I shudder when I think of having done that.

Did these help me?

No. Quite the contrary. They held me back. They put me on a path to be a copy, a pale imitation. It wasn't until I put those behind me did I move forward.

Sure you can be influenced by someone, just don't let it be something the audience can compare you by.

When I watch Max Maven, I study how he gives directions SO concisely. I can use that, be inspired by that, and never come a step close to approaching his uniqueness.

I can watch Ricky Jay and be inspired by the importance and respect he brings to magic. I can emulate that and we ALL benefit.

But as soon as I see a trick, or a line, or a style and I try to take it - not only am I taking something from someone who spent years developing it, I am cheating myself.

Of course, others may not care.

But this you should care about: If you see something that is not yours, and you want it - ask. For one, it's the polite thing to do. You may not care if someone uses you as an inspiration. But they might. Your "inspiration" may be their "theft." Is there ever a reason not to ask? If you really are using their work as an inspiration - taking you somewhere new - they won't mind. If they have issues, then maybe it's not inspiration you are taking from them.

And on a personal note, if you get the reputation from taking from others, you will loose a lot of respect and close many doors that could have been fascinating to walk through.

All it takes is to ask.

Is that ever too much?
Brad Henderson