The Morals of "Figuring Out"

[wZEnigma]

In today's cash-strapped world, what do you think?

If you figure out an effect, do you have the right to perform it? Of course, one could make the comparison to laymen, saying that if they figure something out, then they can perform it. But as magicians, we have a respect for the art, hopefully. Does this break that respect? Is there some part of a magician's oath we're breaking here?

I mean, who hasn't figured out a new trick and then performed it? They may or may not have bought it later. I try to purchase all tricks I like and will perform. In this case, if I figure it out, I try to buy them out of respect for the artist. It's a living for them. On the other hand, what's one person? But every little penny counts.

So in this bipolar post, I hope I posed the question: Is figuring out an effect enough to have performing rights?

Of course legality comes into play here, but with that, what do you think? And notice, this is not exposure. It is magicians doing tricks without paying, but keeping the secret and performing it with respect.

I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts. Hope to post more insightful stuff soon...

Ian

 

[Justin.Morris]

I would hope the answer to your post is obvious, but I would offer you an alternate question: If you can figure out a trick would you WANT to perform it? Personally I try not to perform anything that people can figure out. Morgician had a great post a while back about that.

But morally, any way you put it, theft is wrong. Even if you are stealing someone's ideas, and especially if they are making a living from them.
But morals seem to not matter in todays business world anymore, so it would be nice if the magic brotherhood could hold on to some of those morals.

 

[Ineski]

Figuring out a method to a trick by watching it gives you no right to perform it yourself. A monkey could figure out a trick from a video if watched enough times. Not only is doing tricks you've only seen stupid and unethical, it is also very disrespectful to the creative artist.

Same goes for presentations. If you see someone present something way better than you, then you have no right to copy their performance.

Always ask for permission, if there is something that you just need to do. If the artist wants to keep it to himself you should respect that.

 

[funkymonkey477]

It's not like your going online and finding an illegal download of the effect, you found the method fair and square
I mean if the effect is so poorly crafted or performed that you can figure it out, or your just the type who spots the method for each and every effect you see then yes you have the right to perform it

 

[canadamagic]

It's not like your going online and finding an illegal download of the effect, you found the method fair and square
I mean if the effect is so poorly crafted or performed that you can figure it out, or your just the type who spots the method for each and every effect you see then yes you have the right to perform it

I agree, as long as you are giving credit to the proper person I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Ineski]

It's not like your going online and finding an illegal download of the effect, you figured it out far and square
I mean if the effect is so poorly crafted or performed that you can figure it out, or your just the type who spots the method for each and every effect you see then yes you have the right to perform it

One of the most idiotic posts I've seen in a while.

With that logic even if the effect is crafted and performed perfectly you still have a right to steal it after you've finally figured it out? Can you explain to me why this would be right?

Like I said, a monkey could figure out a method from a video. You aren't specially gifted if you can figure something out, there is nothing special about you. Everybody can do it.

 

[wZEnigma]

Jtmorris, I agree, it is obvious, but I wanted to hear some rebuttals and points.

I personally think it is morally wrong, but it's a personal choice.

Ian

 

[funkymonkey477]

First I was not talking about me specificly

Second if you figure out the method why would you still purchase the effect if the teaching in the video is of no use to you, To respect the creator of the effect, what kind of bull is that?

Unless of course your buying the effect so that you can rip off the creators patter turning you into one of the thousands of clones on youtube that follow an effect word for word

I say if you can figure out an effect work on it perfect it and perform it well then more power to you

 

[Nino]

This is to youtube. When some kid "thinks" he know the method they either perform it or make a tutorial of the effect thus the artist losing profit of his creation. There is a limit to perform a effect you didn't pay to find out. Like if your actually being pay to perform that trick and you even hadn't pay to the artist yet. But to perform for fun its okay but there is a limit. As long as you give them credit.

One question: This is how I look at things when buying a effect. To me when you buy the effect the magican is giving you the right to actually perform the trick. Am I right?

 

[William Draven]

I would say that all depends on weather or not the effect is being sold on the open market. Any effect that is sold for profit of course is fair game to be performed. Otherwise it wouldn't be sold. If you buy a trick like say "wow" then of course you also have the permission to perform it.

So with regard to that, if you figure out the effect, and don't require say special props or gimicks, then I say fair game. Although to perform it without purchasing the effect at some point I think is an ethical grey area and wrong. The proper thing to do is to purchase the effect anyway to support the mind that made it.

If the effect ISN'T sold on the open market and it is property of a magician then it would of course be very wrong to perform it without their permission.

 

[Lyle Borders]

Almost none of the "ORIGINAL" material we see coming popping up these days is in fact original. It is all made from ideas thieved from other magicians. Let me make a comparison to argue (for the sake of playing devils advocate in a war so far very one sided with brain power) with the idea that this kind of behavior is wrong.

Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) has a recipe. This recipe is secret. Very secret. As in under lock and key in a very secure vault, under guard, and not accessible except to those VERY, VERY high up in the company. It is a secret, and is designed to stay that way. Now, if someone out there, in the attempt to make great fried chicken, goes to KFC to see what their chicken tastes like, and figures out the general idea, are they legally or morally obligated to NOT use what they learned? They stole nothing. Their product will NOT be the same, though they tried to learn from the original. There is no legal nor moral breach.

The issues come in the packaging. If said entrepreneur tried to take their new(ish) recipe, package it in a KFC bucket, and tries to sell it as KFC, the legal and moral breach is established. Taking what they see and learn, creating and forming their own "brand," packaging it in their own unique way, and selling the unique product like it is.

If I watch Joe Schmo perform his signature effect over and over again, and figure out how he does it all, and then simply add it to my repertoire, I should be beaten with a stick. If I watch Joe Schmo, figure out how he does it, and then USE THAT INFORMATION to make my own magic, I am good. It doesn't even have to be a completely different trick, but you do have to be able to do something with it. You have to be able to develop a unique approach, use, presentation, etc. And, of course, credit is always due to those you learn from.

There. Have at it.

L

 

[William Draven]

One of the most idiotic posts I've seen in a while.

Like I said, a monkey could figure out a method from a video. You aren't specially gifted if you can figure something out, there is nothing special about you. Everybody can do it.

Aren't you just a ray of sunshine?

 

[Lyle Borders]

I would say that all depends on weather or not the effect is being sold on the open market. Any effect that is sold for profit of course is fair game to be performed. Otherwise it wouldn't be sold. If you buy a trick like say "wow" then of course you also have the permission to perform it.

So with regard to that, if you figure out the effect, and don't require say special props or gimicks, then I say fair game. Although to perform it without purchasing the effect at some point I think is an ethical grey area and wrong. The proper thing to do is to purchase the effect anyway to support the mind that made it.

If the effect ISN'T sold on the open market and it is property of a magician then it would of course be very wrong to perform it without their permission.

Best analysis I have seen so far in this. I don't think it is quite that black and white, but I feel that your idea is pretty spot on.

L

 

[morrispooremagic]

magic morals

I figured out "pressure" before I purchased the video. but I still bought the video not only to honor the one who came up with the idea. but also to gain his insights on how to properly preform the effect and the subtleties involved. with his performance.

I don't necessarily think if you work out the effect on your own that you should not preform it. but if you preform it exactly as the originator of the effect, than that is stealing his effect. you should never present the idea as your own.

there are many magicians who openly say " this is my variation of so and so's effect" so they are giving credit to the originator.

one last thought, I don't preform material that has not published in one form or another. I always purchase the effects or written material that I use, or it's my own material or routines. the guys that do the "tutorials" on youtube or like media should found and shot. it is not fair to the creators of the effect, or to the art of magic as a whole.

ok, I think I am done

 

[William Draven]

I figured out "pressure" before I purchased the video. but I still bought the video not only to honor the one who came up with the idea. but also to gain his insights on how to properly preform the effect and the subtleties involved. with his performance.

I don't necessarily think if you work out the effect on your own that you should not preform it. but if you preform it exactly as the originator of the effect, than that is stealing his effect. you should never present the idea as your own.

there are many magicians who openly say " this is my variation of so and so's effect" so they are giving credit to the originator.

one last thought, I don't preform material that has not published in one form or another. I always purchase the effects or written material that I use, or it's my own material or routines. the guys that do the "tutorials" no youtube or like media should found and shot. it is not fair to the creators of the effect, or to the art of magic as a whole.

ok, I think I am done

Well here's the deal. Why try to re-invent the wheel? If you want to perform an effect like say "Pressure" then it is usually a good idea to get the effect DVD or documentation. For nothing else than to learn what all went into the development of the effect, move, patter, and etc.

You get to see an inside view of the creative mind's own thoughts about how to present and handle the effect. This kind of insight isn't available to you if you just figure out how to do the trick on your own. You're left to make the same mistakes the creator did, and you probably will make those mistakes. It almost does you better to buy the effect and learn all you can.

On the other side of the arguement, if you are trying to create your own unique effects and can use an idea or handeling that you can reverse engineer and use that for a spring board to create your own effect then more power too you. Should you still buy the trick just because you figured out how to do it, and then improved upon it. That's the moral grey area we discussed earlier.

 

[morrispooremagic]

I agree completely

 

[Morgan B]

Figuring out a method to a trick by watching it gives you no right to perform it yourself. A monkey could figure out a trick from a video if watched enough times. Not only is doing tricks you've only seen stupid and unethical, it is also very disrespectful to the creative artist.

Same goes for presentations. If you see someone present something way better than you, then you have no right to copy their performance.

Always ask for permission, if there is something that you just need to do. If the artist wants to keep it to himself you should respect that.

I find this an odd statement from someone that has so many Youtube videos. Are you telling me that you asked permission to broadcast and use all these things over the internet? You got permission from the owners of the effects? Did you ask permission when possible to those whose effects you have used on TV?

I don't think "everyone" can do it, I just think with the right knowledge it is possible. I am not sure about the critical thinking skills that monkeys have to figure out methods of magic effects, but I have never seen a monkey even shuffle cards all that well...but now that I have seen your Youtube posts, I would say close enough. Truthfully, if a monkey can figure it out...it isn't worth buying, as the method is very transparent.

Copying performance is certainly not a good thing, but I don't think that is the question at hand. The question is, is it wrong to watch a Youtube video, figure out the method of a trick, then perform it?

I think it is a valid question, and I am glad it is being asked. It really is an undefined area. I think many believe that if you download an effect with method for free, this is stealing. However, is it stealing if I watch you perform it and then am able to peform it with what I know? If I am able to recreate the effect with my pre-exisiting knowledge? We have to be careful where we decide to draw the line. If this is stealing, then is you posting videos stealing? I mean, these aren't all your orginal effects are they? Some of them you learnt from books, or videos, and present them in your own way. I hardly think a presentation is enough to say it is ALL yours - so if the method I figure out on my own, and come up with my own presentation...I would almost say I put more effort into it than you. It is more mine, then you just replicating what you learnt from a book with answers and coming up with your own way of selling the effect.

I personally see no difference. I think the moral concern is if you pass it off as your own, or steal the presentation word for word.

By the way Ineski...I watched your talkshow magic performance...your break looks like a BIKE RAMP! You should be more focused on your technique and less on who is stealing effects or presentations.

You are too emotional about this - if someone tried to steal my act, I would say GOOD LUCK - you aren't me. If your presentaion and effects are so THOUGHTLESS that a monkey can steal them and do them as well as you...then I would say you need a personality. If someone tried to be Mac King, and use his lines, he would fail...as he is NOT Mac King - and if he COULD deliver the lines and be as funny, chances are he is smart enough to move past that to make himself original.

When people steal, it hurts them, not the performing artist...at least not when he is good.

 

[visualartist]

I find this an odd statement from someone that has so many Youtube videos. Are you telling me that you asked permission to broadcast and use all these things over the internet? You got permission from the owners of the effects? Did you ask permission when possible to those whose effects you have used on TV?

I don't think "everyone" can do it, I just think with the right knowledge it is possible. I am not sure about the critical thinking skills that monkeys have to figure out methods of magic effects, but I have never seen a monkey even shuffle cards all that well...but now that I have seen your Youtube posts, I would say close enough. Truthfully, if a monkey can figure it out...it isn't worth buying, as the method is very transparent.

Copying performance is certainly not a good thing, but I don't think that is the question at hand. The question is, is it wrong to watch a Youtube video, figure out the method of a trick, then perform it?

I think it is a valid question, and I am glad it is being asked. It really is an undefined area. I think many believe that if you download an effect with method for free, this is stealing. However, is it stealing if I watch you perform it and then am able to peform it with what I know? If I am able to recreate the effect with my pre-exisiting knowledge? We have to be careful where we decide to draw the line. If this is stealing, then is you posting videos stealing? I mean, these aren't all your orginal effects are they? Some of them you learnt from books, or videos, and present them in your own way. I hardly think a presentation is enough to say it is ALL yours - so if the method I figure out on my own, and come up with my own presentation...I would almost say I put more effort into it than you. It is more mine, then you just replicating what you learnt from a book with answers and coming up with your own way of selling the effect.

I personally see no difference. I think the moral concern is if you pass it off as your own, or steal the presentation word for word.

By the way Ineski...I watched your talkshow magic performance...your break looks like a BIKE RAMP! You should be more focused on your technique and less on who is stealing effects or presentations.

You are too emotional about this - if someone tried to steal my act, I would say GOOD LUCK - you aren't me. If your presentaion and effects are so THOUGHTLESS that a monkey can steal them and do them as well as you...then I would say you need a personality. If someone tried to be Mac King, and use his lines, he would fail...as he is NOT Mac King - and if he COULD deliver the lines and be as funny, chances are he is smart enough to move past that to make himself original.

When people steal, it hurts them, not the performing artist...at least not when he is good.

Stole the words out of my mouth and put them in a more coherent and nicer way that I ever could.

BTW.I did enjoy how ineski made the facial expressions and mannerisms of jeff McBride on stage. But im sure he asked for permission.

 

[Ineski]

So say you go to a concert and the band plays some great songs. One of the songs is especially good and after you get home you learn to play it and figure you can rock it out pretty decently. You've learned it and you haven't stolen any actual materials, but you can't go perform it publicly and make money with it because it's copyrighted and you have to pay royalties to the composers. In the music industry they got this working system.

In magic however people just seem to feel it's completely all right to do anything that you see others do without even knowing where the original effect came from. This also goes for lines and presentations in general. People take what ever effect they like with the notion of "it's already been published" and copy the whole performance and start to perform it as their own. This is done with both the openly marketed effects and the ones that are not intended for other people.

The biggest problem - as can be seen also in this thread - is that people think it's ok to do this.

 

[William Draven]

So say you go to a concert and the band plays some great songs. One of the songs is especially good and after you get home you learn to play it and figure you can rock it out pretty decently. You've learned it and you haven't stolen any actual materials, but you can't go perform it publicly and make money with it because it's copyrighted and you have to pay royalties to the composers. In the music industry they got this working system.

Apparently the concept of a "cover band" is unknown to you?

In magic however people just seem to feel it's completely all right to do anything that you see others do without even knowing where the original effect came from.

When you buy magic from a retailer that sells it for the purpose of performing it (which is what I think the initial question was being asked about, then yes. Yes it is okay to perfrom these effects. That's why they were published for afterall.

This also goes for lines and presentations in general. People take what ever effect they like with the notion of "it's already been published" and copy the whole performance and start to perform it as their own. This is done with both the openly marketed effects and the ones that are not intended for other people.

There isn't a single card trick in magic that isn't a re-invention of some older principle. Further, a LOT of magic is built on the shoulders of those that came before. To use your own music analogy against you, you first learn to play other peoples songs before you can learn to create your own. It's part of the process.

I think you're holding onto a very narrow point and trying to apply it cookie cutter to the entire subject, which just doesn't fit. Ontop of it, you're being an ass with how you approached it before. Monkeys? Really? Do we have to be rude here?

I'll get off my soap box now man.

The biggest problem - as can be seen also in this thread - is that people think it's ok to do this.

I think that everyone is in agreement that it's a grey area with published material and morally wrong with someone's private effect or rutine.