"tips" for sleight of hand

Dec 18, 2007
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Northampton, MA - USA
Firstly. . . NOT ORIGINAL

Secondly. . . sloppy

You're doing a twist to the classic Ambitious Card Routine that is pretty much the same as most that I've seen over the years. The problem is, you are not using a variety of methods and lean too heavily on a DL that is not being done all so clean (needs lots of work and too, you might want to learn the variations for doing it so that you aren't repeating a move that can get found out).

Third. . . "whatever" is not a part of proper patter or presentation nor is it entertaining. . . if you are going to present an intrigue for your chums then make it something that will capture their attention. This footage is an excellent example of how to not accomplish this.

I know I seem to be picking on you, but as I said in my other post to you, I simply want to see people work at being the best they can be. You know deep down in your gut, that this routine and handling probably wouldn't get past the layman, which is why you prefer Youtube over live audience. . . you're afraid of getting found out and worse, having your ego-bubble popped, and yes, the general public can be quite cruel when it comes to catching up a magician and giving him a hard time. This is something that will affect you reputation wise but even more so, on the emotional/psychological level, causing you to doubt yourself and quite possibly seek to either get out of magic completely, become a closet magician, or simply become arrogant enough to not care, which is an attitude that hurts us all.

What you must do is accept honest criticism and allow it to challenge you when it comes to improving upon your material, technique and presentation. Again, do not take what I'm saying "personally", I'm not "attacking" you, but rather how you are doing things and what you need to do in order to make the routine cleaner and superior to what's being done. I'd say this to anyone, so please take it in the spirit it is meant.
 
Oct 29, 2012
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I get it...But I myself would not preform this to a live audience because its not entertaining to the common person. Its more of an inside joke to magicians. I dont really see it being a ACR because no card is selected and im not making it come to the top. It is exactly what the title says only im messing with people while doing it. I do have many good original tricks thats i would preform live. Infact I already have, they then asked for my name and how they could get in contact with me.

To the fact about the egoness and closey magician crap, I have already had people criticize me and then I perfect what they tell me is wrong. Now, if you want to critique me then be my guest, but im telling you now that it wont hurt me emotionally or phsycially just because I enjoy being told whats wrong by people.

I know your not attacking me, Im enjoying your advice and I like it a lot. Although beore you judge the "art" im doing, could you please check my other stuff out. I would really enjoyy seeing what you have to say about it. Wether its bad, good or both. :)

Thanx, Ethan
 
Apr 6, 2011
540
6
Lansing, MI
Your attitude towards Mr. Browning's advice is great, I love it. However your not understanding what it is that he is saying.

He doesn't need to watch your other stuff, his criticisms we're on things that I highly doubt you would go out of your way to do poorly in this video, versus the much more believable idea that this is just how you perform on average. I am not entirely one to talk, because I definitely have some crappy videos that I post just to get certain things across. I get that. I in fact need to get better about the general quality of my videos. However your DL, your general card handling, and your patter all are things that I'm sure are found throughout your magic. They all need some work. If you want specifics or resources (on all of the above besides patter) just shoot me a PM.

Next thing. As Mr. Browning pointed out, this is not original. I'm willing to bet money that your other effects are not as well. This is not a reflection of you personally, simply that about 95% of the time, someone at your level of experience (and really mine) do not have the knowledge base nor the resource base to have even the sl(e)ightest (HaHa) idea of whether or not something is original. So please, look at you're saying. Even offhandly, you refer to your other videos as your "original tricks." What I would recommend doing, and what I myself do, is this: If you come up with something you havent seen anywhere else, call it that. Do not call it original, simply say that you have yet to hear of it. Again, I'm sure that 95% of the time this will prove to be the truth. That your effect or method is not original, you just haven't seen it yet. On that note, by no means should that be a disappointment. It means two things: One, your clever enough to come up with something that a magician with far more experience than you thought was worth publishing. Two, lucky you, you now have a resource to use to improve whatever it is you figured out. Chances are, they have put more work into it than you have, and they have better advice on how to do it.

About the egoness and closey magician crap. First, please don't refer to good advice as crap. It makes you look immature, and it also means that you are not thinking about things in the right way. I understand that it is just a phrase of speech, but every word that you utter or thought that you type alters your perception of things. Even if you used that word without thought, crap has a lot of negative connotations, and all your doing by saying it is associating his advice with that word in your head. Not a good habit, break it. As to the advice itself, you don't seem to be getting it. Instead, your trying to protect your ego by referring to your improvements as perfection. As well as defending yourself by bragging about how people want your contact info. That is great that your magic impressed people that much. It in no way shape or form changes what Mr. Browning said to you. All it does is brag, and again, brag sounds bad. Modesty will get you far.

Again, I love how your looking at all of this. Your open to criticism, which puts you miles ahead of most magicians in your position. Neither I or Mr. Browning are trying to belittle you or upset you, and if you really aren't taking any of this that way then that is great. However, you are doing something that I had to battle with myself for a while, and I'm sure I still do this (maybe I've gotten better about it at least). Your saying you know and you understand, and in the same sentence contradicting yourself. I've stopped, or at least slowed down, from doing stuff like that, but really I have no advice on how to get over it. It is again an ego thing, and you just have to take a look at yourself until you figure it out. I really hope you can grow in this community, because we love people who want to try, which it really seems like you do.

Tyler

P.S. Take a look at those red lines that appear on your screen as you type, they are there for a reason. Grammar is one thing, but spelling is just too easy to correct nowadays.
 
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Apr 6, 2011
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As to your effect itself, I have no sound on my computer so perhaps it is my fault. However watching from a purely visual standpoint, way, way too much going on. Unnecessary sleights, unnecessary handlings. Although if that first phase was a turnover pass, that was actually well done. Also, the only people I know that can get away with that flashy of a double lift are Dan and Dave Buck. Otherwise, it does nothing more than add suspicion; who on earth would handle a single card that way.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
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Back in Time
For some reason, watching that video made me want to go back and re-watch Jason England teach the Vernon DL and the Stuart Gordon one as well.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
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Northampton, MA - USA
Ethinzz. . . I can accept that you kind of sort of want feedback from me just in the fact that you asked to be a friend with me; and while I do admit to having a rather large ego, there is a reason behind it -- it's been earned. . . I've been doing magic since the early 1960s and for most of that 50ish years, I've either been on stage or working behind the scenes as a technician and effects developer. I've also worked extensively with noted and not so noted acts, helping them work the bugs out of their routines and better frame/choreograph their presentations. Add to this a short list of accolades, awards and endorsements and you have the bedrock upon which this particular monster (me) was built. BUT, I'm likewise a rather humble person in the sense that I enjoy being of service to both, my fellows in the craft and the craft itself. I get more joy working with someone that's new, such as yourself, and help them in meeting their goals and become a successful showman, than I do working a show now days. I personally believe people in my shoes (years of experience and resource) are obliged to give back and help shape the next generation. I also believe that we need to be a bit tough on those we guide. . . more so with some over others.

There's two or three guys on this and the E forum that I interact with frequently, mainly due to the fact that they are serious about being the best they can possibly be and learning all they can about this craft. It was this rare expression of dedication that drew me to them, it's the kind of thing I wish I saw more of and what I am hopefully nudging you towards -- the desire to become excellent.

As the saying goes, there is a huge difference between buying a piano and investing in a Steinway. . .
 
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Oct 29, 2012
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To..

To TylerRouss- Well it was supposed to be for magicians not normal "on the street" people. If you know how its done then thats good; you were supposed to. Its a joke. I have been doing magic for 8 years and i can fool people like you cant even imagine. Now, i can definitely improve my skills but im better then most people think. I just might PM you though.

Mr.Browning- OK, thank you. I love you...Not really. Haha. I know its not funny. I dont care. Haha. Alright; im done.
 
Apr 6, 2011
540
6
Lansing, MI
Ethan, congrats, you got me interested enough to go view about half your videos, and your other posts on theory11. I did this to ensure that what I am saying is correct, and that I am not just being narrow-minded or biased by judging you off of one performance.

Now, again, please do not tell me what I can or cannot imagine. As before, I am aware that it is a phrase of speech, but it still reflects on you. Please start considering your word choice a bit more fully because it is easy to give unwanted offense.

It does not matter how long you have done something, it only matters how you have spent that time.

It also does not matter if I know how its done or not... The advice that I and Mr. Browning gave has absolutely nothing to do with the effect itself, at least in the way that you are talking about it. This is a community of serious magicians; looking over your channel, your subscriptions, your activity, you have not spent much time interacting with serious magicians. A much better mindset to have when asking for reviews of your work here on Theory11, is that everyone already knows how it is done. Instead, you will be critiqued on your execution, your creativity, your presentation, and your handling. Not only are these the critiques that will make you grow and develop, they are also coming from people with vastly more experience and knowledge than those that you have been interacting with thus far.

It would be enormously appreciated if you went through your channel and removed the"original" from the titles of about half your videos, as none of them are original, in method or presentation. Sorry.

Ethan! We still love you. I'm sorry if I am coming off as harsh. We want you to grow, we want to help you. SO PLEASE!!!! Stop trying to defend yourself, stop trying to prove yourself, stop fighting us!!! Just listen and try to learn.

Tyler
 
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Dec 18, 2007
1,610
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To TylerRouss- Well it was supposed to be for magicians not normal "on the street" people. If you know how its done then thats good; you were supposed to. Its a joke. I have been doing magic for 8 years and i can fool people like you cant even imagine. Now, i can definitely improve my skills but im better then most people think. I just might PM you though.

Mr.Browning- OK, thank you. I love you...Not really. Haha. I know its not funny. I dont care. Haha. Alright; im done.

THIS is the attitude that will prevent you from getting anywhere in magic that goes beyond the clown that does "tricks" vs. "magic". For starters, the goal of any valid magician has nothing to do with "fooling" people and everything to do with "enchanting" them, which involves proper patter and framing around an effect or series of effects that make up a complete routine.

I really hope you grow up sometime soon, and realize that you're just a hack and there's far more to it all. Until you do no one that's worth their salt is going to give you their time, and why should they? You have little to no respect for the craft or the people that know more about the work than you do and how they can help you do more than "fool" people.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
Well it was supposed to be for magicians not normal "on the street" people. If you know how its done then thats good; you were supposed to. Its a joke.

You are making excuses. Your performance of sleights was less than adequate. You flashed at several points. It is obvious you've learned from YouTube. Your presentation was, well, you know, crappy or like, whatever. I saw that you posted an entry to one of Mismag's contests. I can see you've learned your patter and presentation from him. If you want to be a real magician, stop saying what you are doing. Nobody but other YouTube magicians care about your adventures with your deck of cards.


I have been doing magic for 8 years and i can fool people like you cant even imagine.

Oh, I can imagine . But seriously, you may only be fooling people on YouTube. Real magic is performed for real people in person. Go_Out.Perform. Anyway, the emphasis should be on entertaining not fooling people... But you won't learn that on YouTube.

Now, i can definitely improve my skills but im better then most people think.

Keep believing that you are better than most people think... They couldn't possibly be right. Most people, especially those with experience, simply dont know good talent when they see it. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. If most people are telling you something, listen.

Mr.Browning- OK, thank you. I love you...Not really. Haha. I know its not funny. I dont care. Haha. Alright; im done.

Craig was offering you very good advice and trying to help you and THAT is how you respond? That was disrespectful, and you owe Craig an apology.

As for you being done, you hit the nail on the head. You didn't come to learn how to be a real magician, but to get false praise to feed your ego. That won't happen. Go back to your buddy MisMag and all of his sycophantic misfits. Feel free to come back here when you want to learn and are ready to truly listen to genuine advice.
 
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Apr 6, 2011
540
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Lansing, MI
Well said David, and Mr. browning. I was avoiding being quite so forthcoming in my opinion because I remember the days when I thought the only thing was youtube, however after further consideration.. that doesn't make up for this attitude. And, he is here, he said he has been watching the forums for a while, it is time to grow up.
 
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Jan 22, 2012
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Yeah no offense but why would you perform to magicians? Isn't the whole point of magic to perform for people who haven't experienced it? I mean it's cool to show magicians a cool new trick that you learned but that shouldn't be the premise for creating a magic trick. I mean it's a bonus to create a trick that can fool magicians but if it fools the spectator it has done its job. So creating these "tips" for magicians isn't going to be very good trick to spectators.
 
Oct 29, 2012
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Ok

Alright thanx for the advice. I didnt mean to sound as immature as i did. Although i do preform for people on the streets, not just on youtube. Your wrong about that. Although thank you for the advice anyway. I relize that magic should be for the people who dont see it day to day like magicians, however, is it such a bad thing to show a fellow magician a trick? I dont think it is.
 
Oct 29, 2012
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Also, the thank you was to everyone that said something useful and helpful. That would be everyone that posted so far, so.
 
Apr 6, 2011
540
6
Lansing, MI
Ethan, I like the change of attitude. Good job. That is a first step.

I watched all of your original videos, every one of them. Not a single effect is original, I can give you the sources for whichever one you want. I have never seen your control before, but I still would not refer to it as original until you do some serious research. You shouldn't be even trying to create your own magic at this point, instead work on developing a few things.
To start, a solid foundation of sleights: As mentioned your DL needs a lot of work. Your control looks nice to the camera.. judging from its handling I'm guessing it doesn't look quite as nice at other angles. You need something more versatile, I'd recommend any variation of a pass; it requires you to develop good practicing habits before you can even perform it. If you already have one, great. What forces do you know? Also, I would learn the Zarrow Shuffle; it can easily be adapted to be in the hands, from a faro, or on the table. Beautiful false shuffle. Another sleight I would recommend for good practicing habits is to learn a second or bottom deal. It'll develop much stronger and more coordinated finger muscles, and improve your general card handling. Excellent, professional, experienced tutorials exist for all of these sleights here on theory11, the best of which are from Jason England.
Even more importantly, you need to be developing your abilities as a showman. This is best done through performance, how often do you perform for real spectators? As in, not youtube, not your parents, not your buddies that you always show card tricks to. People at your school or community that do not know you, and will be swift to critique you and help you develop. Spectators are the best and final judges of you as a magician, take advantage of that.
Perhaps you should also start working on developing original, intelligent patter and presentations for good effects. (Nothing that I have seen mismag put forth meets the requirement of a good effect.) You might want to get more experience just interacting and performing for spectators before you start working on this, but I really am new to this side of magic as well. Maybe it is good to start right where you are. I'll leave this point to the more experienced on this thread, if they are still willing to help you.

Also, no, its great to show other magicians a trick. Show them a trick that impresses them in its cleverness, and how well they know a spectator would react to seeing it. SHOWING other magicians your tricks is great. CREATING tricks to show to other magicians, not so much.

Tyler
 
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RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
As Tyler said, work on your foundations. Most everything you've learned so far is WRONG. That is the biggest problem with YouTube - most people who do "tutorials" haven't learned from good sources and don't have proper technique. Anyone who knows what they are doing, wouldn't put up a tutorial.

Also, as Tyler said, don't focus on creating new sleights or effects. You need a foundation before you try to do that. Trying without the proper foundation will waste time better spent on learning tried and true techniques.

I would recommend starting from scratch with Roberto Giobbi's Card College books, Volumes 1 and 2. You also may want to get the videos of Roberto Giobbi performing (but not teaching) the sleights which you can get here : http://www.lybrary.com/card-college-1-videos-only-p-26771.html I can't stress this enough, you need to relearn the basics correctly. Dont skip the sections on grip and shuffles thinking you already know those techniques. Minor mistakes in those techniques can cause problems later when learning more difficult sleights. You need to learn those basics before the more challenging material that Tyler is suggesting.

Giobbi has an excellent style which emphasizes only touching the cards when there is a justification. He also has excellent chapters on presentation. The books teach the sleights and then teach routines to go with it.

As for performing (not preforming) for other magicians, there are two circumstances you should perform for others. The first is for feedback - honest and constructive feedback. The second is for "magician foolers" which are fun, but have limited value toward your progression as a magician. Also, you are not at a point where you can fool an experienced magician, so don't waste your time focusing on that.

As a final note, just don't say "thanks for the advice" but tell us what you are going to do based on the advice. Otherwise, it is impossible to determine if you are following the advice or just saying "thanks" and then continuing to learn from YouTube. If that is the case, let us know so we don't waste our time.
 
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Jan 22, 2012
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however, is it such a bad thing to show a fellow magician a trick? I dont think it is.

I never said that it's a bad thing to show magicians an effect. I said it's not a good thing to create a trick that's aimed as an inside joke for magicians.
 
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