Torrents vs Selling

Is selling or buying a trick on ebay any better than torrenting magic?


  • Total voters
    112
Dec 17, 2007
858
2
Canada
First off I don't not condone or condemn torrenting magic or second hand selling it.


Now I would like to get some opinions on this is torrenting magic any different than buying it off ebay?


With both
Comes from a purchased dvd
Creators make no money
Can be viewed by many who dont pay
Etc...


So what I am saying is selling or buying magic tricks on ebay any better than torrenting it?

Tell me what you think.

BONUS QUESTION:

Since this thread's flame has rekindled I will add a side question. Is the material learned on a dvd bought from Ebay more valued by the student than the material on a dvd torrented by the student?


-Michael
 
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Sep 1, 2007
1,393
7
35
Belgrade, Serbia
I think selling it over ebay is a little worse, because you watched dvd, and than you are taking money for it, from other people... So you are basicly making money off of it....
 
Dec 17, 2007
858
2
Canada
I think selling it over ebay is a little worse, because you watched dvd, and than you are taking money for it, from other people... So you are basicly making money off of it....

Yes but most of the time on ebay people get half of what they payed.



-Michael
 
That's the problem when you are selling knowledge rather than an actual product. You can resell a video, because if you dont own the video you can't watch it anymore, so really you lose whatever money you dont make back on resale, on the few times you watched it. However since magic is Knowledge, once it is learned, the book/video can be resold, and while you cannot rereference the material, the knowledge is mostly retained.

Knowledge is just one of those that is hard to get money for, or stop piracy against because it costs someone nothing except time usually to share that knowledge. I mean, even if you don't download an entire DVD, it takes someone 5 minutes to send a message telling someone how it works roughly for free. Where as, you couldnt tell someone how a movie goes and retain any sort of usefulness at all, except knowing what happens roughly.

At the end of the day people justify Ebay since they are paying money for it they are doing the right thing regardless of where the money goes and people justify torrents because these days you have to pay $30 for a 1 trick DVD and who can afford that? :p

We can say that perhaps the buyers/sellers on ebay have better intentions, I mean anyone selling a magic DVD etc probably bought it and doesnt like it, or is giving up magic etc hence they don't need it anymore. While anyone buying off ebay is looking to get into magic but just cant afford RRP, so they'd rather purchase it second hand like you can purchase just about any other product.
 
Jan 13, 2008
1,137
0
To be honest, I can easily see this thread spiraling into something that'll get closed. In the meantime, I'll give my response.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with selling a magic DVD over Ebay. It's no worse than selling any other DVD. I know some people are going to say "but, but, but...the secret!!!", but that's like saying "but, but, but...the plot, especially if there are plot twists!" You watch a magic DVD to discover a method for a magic trick, and (hopefully) some tips for performing it well. You watch a regular movie to enjoy and discover the story. They are similar enough to me (some may disagree, and that's okay--I respect that not everyone will share my opinion).

Additionally, the person releasing the DVD doesn't get to make money off of the sale over Ebay. This is true of both regular movies and magic DVDs, so no difference there.

There was another point up there, about many getting to watch it without paying...I'm going to assume that's just for torrent sites, as Ebay is not a charity site, so everything on there must be paid for (and usually sells for cheaper than most other retailers). As well, "comes from a purchased dvd" I'm going to assume is also for torrents only, because the DVDs for sale on Ebay (assuming you aren't buying a ripped copy) don't just come from "a purchased dvd", they are purchased DVDs.

In addition, I can see Ebay being a valid option because what happens if you make a purchase that you're not happy with? If I were to purchase an effect I had no intention of performing, Ebay seems like a pretty good option to me (especially if the company/person didn't accept returns on opened goods, which is most often the case with DVDs). I mean, it ends up essentially being a washout, because you're not down any (or much) money for a wasted cause, and the artist still got paid with the original purchase.

With all that said, I've only made two purchases on Ebay (both for unopened copies of the floating rose, and business cardiograph), and I was (and still am) happy with both purchases. Why did I choose Ebay? Both the price of the DVD and the shipping was cheaper than any other online retailer could provide me (note that you have to keep in mind that a lot of the sales on Ebay are by retailers--often times magic shops will open up an Ebay store instead of a regular website because it's cheaper and easier for them to operate).

Also, of course, torrents aren't helping the magic community very much...sure, it helps get some people into magic for virtually no cost, but the magic community suffers as a whole (lower sales = low incentive for magicians to release good material (why would they if it's just going to get pirated anyway?) = a sad magic community).

In summary, I guess I'm saying that torrents are much worse than Ebay, seeing as I believe Ebay is a valid option in many cases (I realize not in every case, as there will be people who buy the DVD, rip it, then sell off the original DVD--but there's negatives to everything in life. Some people are good, some people are bad--should we wipe out all human beings just because some are bad? Goodness no, that's unfair to the good ones. Same applies here--there are enough good uses for selling magic on ebay that it outweighs the bad. Again, obviously it's my opinion, you don't have to share it, just respect it). :)
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,595
0
Venezuela
Yeah one thing I dont understand, is that you shouldnt download torrents because its disrepectful and is like taking money out of the pocket's creator. I understand the disrepectful thing but what I dont get is that selling used DVD's (on ebay for example) wont make the creator earn any money or yes?
 
Mar 29, 2008
882
2
Here is the thing - you pay for things that have NO value, but to the purchaser. Jerry's Nuggets for example, we all know aren't "WORTH" 150 bucks...but they are, because people are willing to pay for the right to own them and bid that price.

Moreover, we pay the extra money beyond the ACTUAL value, for this right - it is called PERCEIVED VALUE - and this money gives the product a sort of respect/importance. If Nuggets were free...nobody would really want them after awhile.

This same thing occurs in magic secrets - when you get the secret for free...it creates a lack of respect for the secret. I find those that STEAL all their magic to learn it, are not as educated and don't display through actions, that they care about magic as much.

When you resell an effect - you are still giving it a value - people still have to INVEST their MONEY (which represents their investment of time and effort, as they earned that money) to obtain the secret.

When you take it off Torrent, you are only showing you have the skill of a monkey to take that effect. This type concept is VERY different, when you resell the original product, you had to invest in it - which helps the magic makers continue to make more magic products....so, if you love a magician...buy his product to support him. When you just take it, you take money out of the producers pocket.

SOLUTION - if you get it for free and like it - GO BUY IT! I got some free Lee Asher videos when I started magic - VHS copies of some stuff...but after I watched them, I liked him so much I replaced them with originals. For example, I will download a song...but, if I like them, and the album sounds good - I will support the artist. This may mean less on the MASSIVE level of music - but for magicians, they aren't making millions...often not even six figures - so the numbers add up to be a larger percentage of their market.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,595
0
Venezuela
Here is the thing - you pay for things that have NO value, but to the purchaser. Jerry's Nuggets for example, we all know aren't "WORTH" 150 bucks...but they are, because people are willing to pay for the right to own them and bid that price.

Moreover, we pay the extra money beyond the ACTUAL value, for this right - it is called PERCEIVED VALUE - and this money gives the product a sort of respect/importance. If Nuggets were free...nobody would really want them after awhile.

This same thing occurs in magic secrets - when you get the secret for free...it creates a lack of respect for the secret. I find those that STEAL all their magic to learn it, are not as educated and don't display through actions, that they care about magic as much.

When you resell an effect - you are still giving it a value - people still have to INVEST their MONEY (which represents their investment of time and effort, as they earned that money) to obtain the secret.

When you take it off Torrent, you are only showing you have the skill of a monkey to take that effect. This type concept is VERY different, when you resell the original product, you had to invest in it - which helps the magic makers continue to make more magic products....so, if you love a magician...buy his product to support him. When you just take it, you take money out of the producers pocket.

SOLUTION - if you get it for free and like it - GO BUY IT! I got some free Lee Asher videos when I started magic - VHS copies of some stuff...but after I watched them, I liked him so much I replaced them with originals. For example, I will download a song...but, if I like them, and the album sounds good - I will support the artist. This may mean less on the MASSIVE level of music - but for magicians, they aren't making millions...often not even six figures - so the numbers add up to be a larger percentage of their market.
Thanks man you hit the nail on the head :)

Its true, when you get things for free, there are many possibilities that you wont enjoy it as much as if you have payed it.. Maybe because you didnt just put effort to get that one, I dont know.. Misteries of life ;)
 
Sep 30, 2008
310
0
31
Pittsburgh
Since this thread is actually continuing, I might as well share my thoughts.

When you regularly download torrents to learn the new secret out there and learn how to do it, you don't appreciate it as much as you would if you bought it. When you buy something, you've paid money to learn it and you've paid your respects to its author by supporting them.

Plus if it's free, then there's no reason for you to stop doing it. You'll end up downloading every magic torrent out there. Let's face it, you aren't going to appreciate all of the material you get. You'll know how everything is done, but you're going to be disappointed in how it's done ore something like that and you're not going to take the time and practice it takes to actually perform the effect. This lack of appreciation is what I think the problem with the magic community today is. The lack of appreciation of magic DVDs leads to the lack of respect for the magic world. People around the magic community wouldn't have such a smug attitude about everything and people would be a lot nicer. People on this forum get annoyed because they think the forums are supposed to be a great learning environment for everyone. What they're left with is people getting into silly arguments due to their ego issues. Again, lack of appreciation for the magic world.

I don't think that buying and selling used copies is as bad, but it's still unethical. At least if you're buying the material on ebay, you still have the mentality to buy your stuff. It's still unethical because you're not supporting the creator directly, but it doesn't give the buyer the same lack of respect as downloading torrents does.

With all that said I don't really think this thread should exist. Discussing which one is worse does not help the problem whatsoever and in my opinion, only contributes to the situation.

-Kevin
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mar 29, 2008
882
2
Thanks Aria.SA - you nailed it, I just extended it - really...I am not going to say I haven't been given anything free...however, when I have - I REALLY appreciated it more, because it is NOT the standard. I know magic is expensive, but it's odd that some guy will download 100 vids...and not master one....nor have any respect for what he has learnt.

Anyhow, I don't want to get on that path - truly - there is SO much magic out there - more often than not, it is NOT worth paying for - but as perhaps the cheapest man on earth...I feel every book I own is worth it's weight in gold...and if I was offered a printed off and ringed version of it - I wouldn't want it...not for free, not for anything. My books have value...and they look sexy on my shelf!
 
Sep 19, 2007
96
0
Australia
I wont criticize purchasing from ebay, but i will with torrenting.
True you paid for one effect, learn it, and then resell. But still, the people who are buying it still has to pay for it, though for a cheaper price, but that's better than torrenting no?

Also note that some effects that are sold on ebay, say effects like the M5, Raven, Gecko, stuff that requires a provided gimmick to perform, a gimmick that can't be made by yourself, THOSE are reasonable enough to purchase from ebay from sellers who didn't like it.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
19
Florida
instagram.com
who here has downloaded a song from the net without paying?

did you feel bad?

didnt think so.

magic is no different
It's certainly no different in legal aspects. However, music artists generally make very little off the sale of their albums. So by downloading "a song" you're not effecting their primary source of income. The big bucks come from endorsements, business deals, tours, etc.

By downloading magic videos illegally you are effecting many artists' primary source of income and, therefore, their livelihood.

That said, it's absolutely unethical to download music OR magic illegally. We do everything in our power to remove all theory11 videos from file sharing sites. Should you ever encounter one of our productions being shared illegally, PM me and I'll take care of it.
 
May 27, 2008
32
0
WV
www.sinimagic.com
I'll chime in with my 2 cents.

Torrent- I think most of us agree that's wrong.

Buying second hand- Magic clubs have auctions all the time where magicians sell their old stuff they don't want anymore and no once calls this unethical. I know the creator makes no direct money when their product is resold. So what? How many of you have bought used books for your college classes? It's the same deal. The author gets nothing for that. It goes right into the pockets of the bookstore.

Whenever I sell a DVD/book etc that I no longer want, I STOP performing that trick. In most cases I never performed it anyway. I won't perform anything I don't own or have the right to perform.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I think selling it over ebay is a little worse, because you watched dvd, and than you are taking money for it, from other people... So you are basicly making money off of it....

Let's say you paid $35 for a DVD and then sold it second-hand on eBay for $20. You're still 15 bucks in the hole. So, how am I profiting off of this again?

Jesus people, do the math on your own.

At the end of the day people justify Ebay since they are paying money for it they are doing the right thing regardless of where the money goes and people justify torrents because these days you have to pay $30 for a 1 trick DVD and who can afford that? :p

Am I the only one who thinks this means we should be looking deeper into this issue?

Going on an ethics witch hunt has not made the slightest millimeter of progress in the history of magic. Perhaps it's time to stop tearing each other's throats out in a selfish fight to attain the moral high ground and start thinking about this like non-morons.

With all that said I don't really think this thread should exist. Discussing which one is worse does not help the problem whatsoever and in my opinion, only contributes to the situation.

It's a loaded question, but I find it useful for helping me see who around here is full of ****. For example:

who here has downloaded a song from the net without paying?

did you feel bad?

didnt think so.

magic is no different

Case in point.
 
Dec 17, 2007
858
2
Canada
Since this thread's flame has rekindled I will add a side question. Is the material learned on a dvd bought from Ebay more valued by the student than the material on a dvd torrented by the student?


-Michael
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
1
31
Long Island/New York
With torrents, tons of people are getting it wrongfully. With eBay, only one person is getting it wrongfully.

To be honest, I have sold old magic DVDs on ebay in the past including ones that have gimmicks.

Here are some reasons as to why I did it:

I bought a couple tricks where they turned out to be absolute garbage and effects I would never perform. So I try to get my money back by selling it on ebay, and in that case, I feel no guilt for the artist since he's the one who put out a cruddy DVD/trick.

If I have some old DVDs that I've learned everything on it, I'm gonna sell it since I no longer need it. Let some other kid who's just starting out buy it second hand for a cheaper price without breaking the bank. Plus I get a little cash back to recycle into buying more effects.

Is it wrong? Probably, but I feel that most effects that come out are overpriced and this is a way to get by.
 
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