Totally Out of Control - Better left unreplicated?

Nov 30, 2008
249
1
28
Ann Arbor, MI
The tricks you are performing, and sleights involved, are not what's important.
It's your presentation, style, and connection with your spectator. They don't know if you used a double undercut, or did a pass. Thats not what they're watching.
This DVD isn't such a great thing because many of the kids out there don't make it original. This wouldn't be a problem if they would add their own twist into the mix.
 
Guys,

Seriously, don't forget that Theory 11 is a business and they will do what ever they can to make money and because of that I don't blame them for releasing TOOC on DVD, people will grab it like Hanna Montana T-shirts on the day before Christmas. But I still think it is a good thing to do because there are so many utility moves and ideas in TOOC that by releasing it on DVD and raising the awareness of TOOC will help originality and creativity a lot.

If you really think about it, it doesn't matter who will buy the TOOC DVD because the magicians that will perform these effects to a live audience will only be the magicians who care, respect, and really study the effects on the DVD since they require a good amount of practice and thinking because they are pretty advanced effects. I think that you guys are taking all the YouTube business too seriously because there is nothing and there will not be anything that you can do about it. How many Laymens do you guys really think sit in front of their computer screen and watch a bunch of 10 year olds perform and revealing tricks that they filmed using their webcam?

If you guys don't want to perform tricks that million of other magicians perform, create your own. That’s what I do most of the time because I know what you guys are talking about; it feels really good to perform an effect that not many people know of.

This is all I have to say for now,


The Illusionist
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Let me start by asking a simple but very important question - Who do you perform for? For yourself? Magicians? Or to amaze an audience in a way they may have never experienced?

Hi Jon, thanks for replying.

I am an actor first and foremost and hence in theatre, film and magic, have always performed for the audience. Many of my better posts in these forums have been about the encouragement of performing for an audience rather than for yourself.

If it's the last, then it doesn't matter whether something is a book or a DVD or even a smoke signal. Spreading GOOD magic should always be looked upon as a good thing, as that only inspires additional creators to continue working (day and night) and continue creating.

Of course, I don't disagree with this, nor do I think I disagreed with this in my original post.

Will having something more in the center of attention inspire more magicians to learn it and perform it? Probably. But why does that matter? Why does it matter if 30 other magicians in Iceland also perform that effect?

Why does it matter? Because if 30 magicians perform it in Iceland, then by proportion several hundred magicians perform it in Australia. Sorry, but your use of exaggeration backfired there. Here in Sydney we have a regular jam session going of 20-something magicians. Probably about 15 of them know The Queens, and about 20 of them have studied the Trilogy in some form.

Why does it matter? Well, let me ask you something. Why is it important to present something fresh to the spectator? Magic more than a lot of arts has the tendency to be stereotyped. I believe that more people than we'd care to admit have more knowledge about magic than we'd care to admit. Honestly, I think you're deluding yourself (not you personally Jon) if you think that the public have no knowledge of magic, or the most popular tricks in magic. So if you have many magicians performing the same thing, and many laypeople who know about magic, who hold preconceptions about magic, and many people who have experienced either through a show or a busker or an anecdote, something of a magic performance, why then, why is it important to present something fresh, I ask you?

I think the answer is pretty evident. Amongst other things, to be different, to be special. The magician should be remembered for something unique about him, the magician should be a special person who offered a special moment of astonishment.

So if there are stereotypes, and there are many magicians performing the same routines, which magician would you like to be, the one who performs strong magic which has been performed before, or the one who performs strong magic and is unique? A lot of people do not have the ability to be different or to distinguish themselves as a personality; what does different mean anyway?

Yes, TOoC is strong magic. But given that I believe that more laypeople than you give credit to know more about magic than the average magician would think, I would rather take the alternative route, and perform unique magic. See, if just 10% of people have seen magic before, have seen the same routines, have the same preconceptions about magicians, well then I daresay I will take the role of a magician for all laymen, and for the sake of the chance of encountering even that 10%, I will stick to being unique and being me and performing magic which other magicians do not perform. Because if you perform regularly, you will meet people who have seen magic before. Who know something of magic. Who believe they know something of magic. And rather than settle for 90% of the audience to be amazed, and 10% of the audience to expect the trick, or even to pre-empt or create a solution which is totally improbably and ridiculous, I'd rather sweep those assertions aside, sweep aside what people might think, go out there, be bold, and show them me.

And that is why it matters that a huge proportion of magicians perform these effects. It's not just 30 Icelanders. It's practically every magician my age I know personally, and a huge percentage of magicians on these forums.

David Blaine's first special was structured entirely on effects that were decades old. Did that affect how his spectators reacted? Did that affect how the world reacted to the special?

Not a bit.

I wasn't into magic so I can't relate to that street special. However, I would offer the opinion that David Blaine is a faulty example in this instance.

First of all: David Blaine is different. I can't imagine anyone arguing otherwise. In many ways, David Blaine is in fact the embodiment of what I am arguing about.

But I think you're barking up the wrong tree Jon. You argue that David Blaine was performing tricks over a decade old. This is exactly the sort of effect I'm arguing for.

But without knowing the exact tricks he performed, let's look at the tricks he's performed most recently in Dive of Death. Compression. Using an old Inflated Deck Principle, yes. But the distinction is this: David Blaine essentially resurrected a relatively unknown principle. I am speaking of tricks that are known to a huge percentage of the magic fraternity, forums such as this one. You can't possibly compare the tricks David Blaine performs to the ones I am arguing against, because they are vastly out of proportion.

I don't mean to offend, but I think the last paragraph of your post is a bit confused. It's based on two ideas: David Blaine performs old effects.

Yes, effects that I am arguing for. I think you've confused old for popular. I'm arguing against the overpopularisation of effects.

This did not affect the audience's reactions.

No, for many reasons, but this is completely off the point. Again, comparing this to my argument is apples and oranges.

You do offer a compelling argument, though I am forced to disagree Jon. Thank you for your post, and I hope no offense was taken in this post.
 
Honestly, I only read the first post because I know that the rest would be mindless blabble :)

But anyone remember that beginner video here on T11?
They told us to learn 2 or 3 tricks and get out there and perform.
Now they're releasing a DVD with how many?
 
D

Deleted member 2755

Guest
Wow this thread is nuts. Hey everyone, why are you all getting True Astonishments? After all, thousands of other "kids" are getting it and now everyone will be performing stuff from it. I Don't want to feel unoriginal.

Guys, originality may come from what effects, you do, but there is another aspect (Not saying there aren't more)... HOW you perform the effects. That is what makes real originality. Here is a quote I read on here a little while ago. Not sure who said it. "Its not the trick, its the magician." Well while I may disagree with that quote a bit, the message is mostly true.

Also, about the effects being known... Who cares? I perform effects like Believe DAILY. You know what? I've never seen someone say to me "I SAW THAT ON YOUTUBE!"

TOOC on T11 is the book in video form and has everything the original has along with some more ideas, tricks, handlings, and whatever else Kenner decided to put on this project.

As someone else pointed out, I may as well not even perform a double lift anymore. After all, its one of the most known sleights in all of card magic.

Its ok not to want something, but at least make your reasons valid when you feel the need to publicly say why.. I'll be getting this DVD set. I'm also getting True Astonishments. I'll also continue to buy from here because I enjoy the products here.

If you don't like it don't buy it. You can voice your opinions, but to make such biased comments that shouldn't even be considered valid..... Wow....

-Doug
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
There are a lot of replies here since I've been gone so I'll try and reply to the most focussed ones. Overall, having a quick read, a lot of you have simply missed the point. A warning: this post is too long and I will have to reply in two posts. Part 1 of 2.

Are you serious dude, whats your outlook on magic man think about it, your performing tricks to astonish audiences... personally I have fun with even the most simplest trick that is a million years old used by every magician on earth, you know why because of the reactions!! like houchin said thats what drives us thats whats keeps us going ...not that the trick is so underground and no one knows about it : / screw that its all about the experiece you leave your audiences with for me thats the fun in magic.

I know this was not a reply to me, but I wanted to add something here. What's the trick, that's used by every magician on earth? The way I see it is this. You can perform an ACR and get great reactions 90% of the time from people who don't care. You can also get a colder reaction 10% of the time. Now this 10% of the time, the huge majority of magicians will simply say "Oh well. He just wasn't a magic person. He was a heckler."

Incorrect.

You've failed to create interest in your magic. You've failed to be sufficiently different and sufficiently yourself, so the spectator returns to his preconceived notions of magic as geeky/crap/etc. Too many people dismiss it as the layman's fault, no, it's your fault. Is your spectator analyzing your moves for a solution? Present something unique and different that makes them question it. In other words you've failed. Yes, we are performing for the audience. But I ask, who are you performing for? 90% of the audience, or 100%? I believe originality in effect choices in this sense is the best way to achieve this.

i'm nowhere near as experienced of a magician as most of you are here on the forum. however, i think a lot of you are losing sight on the real goal here. jon asked a great question here "Who do you perform for? For yourself? Magicians? Or to amaze an audience in a way they may have never experienced?" who cares if some 12 year old magicians can do the same moves as you. the real question is can you perform the trick. knowing the difference between doing magic and performing magic.

if you want to cut your selves short of knowledge TOoC can provide, it's your lost. if you don't know how a slight is done, how can you add it in your routines? if you don't know the basic movements how can you improve it and make it work for you?

e.g. how many times have you seen the cups and balls routine?(more than once?) i'm sure a lot of layman has as well. yet, david regal performed a cups and balls routine based on marshmallows and hot chocolate. pouring out hot chocolate from a cup at the end of the routine. surprised everyone!

i think i've rambled on long enough. my point is, don't sell your self short of knowledge, in the end it is what you know and how you perform it that counts. it really doesn't matter what the guy next to you is doing. if he's performing the same trick, the move to another trick, or personalize the trick with your own story. don't get so hung up on the not so polished magicians doing the slights so sloppily on youtube. (to me, most of those are not performances, just demonstrations of how they execute the moves.) unless you want to wait for those videos to be uploaded, and learn from the free tutorials, haha, kidding.

I've answered your first paragraph in my post above. You're correct about David Regal - he's different. That's brilliant. If you reread my initial post however, I argue that many people do not have this ability to be so different. Hence the multiplicity of effects such as The Queens actually hinders this creative process. Ultimately TOoC is just one book. Is it really my loss? I won't know the secret to a routine everyone else under the sun performs. Nope, I don't think so.

I also disagree with one other important point; it does matter what the person next to you is doing. As much as I don't care if you want to go study TOoC and Trilogy religiously and just perform those (because I'll be the one getting the big gigs), it affects you because laypeople have more understanding of magic than you give them credit for, than a lot of magicians give them credit for. Don't think of them as in the dark, they're not.

whoa, this thread is making me feel stupid, hey everybdy!!! way to man people are using the double lift, so lets stop using it!!!! wait a minute, no why would I do that?

screw that biatch, when is a spectator going to think of originality, when all they are thinking about is you playing with your cards in a way that will eventually produce their card. I don't know why I am even writing on this forum, I almost never do due to the fact that there are just way to many noobies in here. if me and a million other people go out and perform the trick panic, then guess what, thats a million people getting the same great reaction. Honestly, this thread is totally useless, nobody knows the difference.

Oh, useless, is that right? I think you've completely missed the point here. A sleight is very different from a routine. Do you know the difference? Go back to reading Royal Road, buddy. Do millions of people get the same great reactions? I doubt it. Read my reply to hector_cervantes' post above. You underestimate your audience, and that's a very bad fault to have. Let me ask you something. What sort of work have you gotten in magic? I'd hate to see your magic, if you fail to give them any intelligence whatsoever.

I respectfully advise you to reconsider your opinions of laymen, and to start treating them with respect.

You have to remember, there are more spectators then magicains out there... A LOT MORE. Also theres alot of people who do different types of magic who don't use tricks from Totally Out of Control. In other words, the chances of a spectator seeing the same trick again and in the time period that they still remeber that same very trick it is very very slim.

It's more than a specific thrick though man. I'm talking more about experience and preconceptions. Have you ever had someone who just wasn't interested in magic?

You know why that is?

It's because they don't believe they're interested in what they think magic is about. And if you perform the same thing - who's to change their mind?

It's very easy to dismiss these people as just uninterested. But I say that's not good enough. I say that when I say I perform for the experience of a spectator, I perform for the experience of 100% of spectators! Hecklers, uninterested folk, if you've ever classified anyone as such, pass them on to me, I'll get them interested in magic, and if I have any luck I'll get some gigs from it too because I'm bold enough to go there and I'm honest enough in saying that it's not them, it's us that need to change. How will I do this? By being different.

I USED to be a big advocate for books not being made into dvd's. now i could care less.

When T11 released the DPS i was rather frustrated as i spent lots of time learning and working on finding the tips and hints of the move. now to me its another move kids buy, think is too hard or try to use and get busted, get discouraged and leave it alone. And BTW it is not intermediate. when will any of the sleights be rated hard? flourishes are not harder than mastering a second or bottom deal. different topic.

this same thing will happen with the book. sure magicians won't be as impressed unless you are doing it so well that they can't tell its something they know.

WHO CARES?

Audiences don't. they don't watch the magic industry and buy the new dvd's to catch you.

again, i used to care but now its a pointless argument. case closed.

I respectfully disagree. We're speaking of two different things here. I am not talking about them knowing and following every single effect. I am talking about preconceptions and speaking to all laymen. We as magicians need to give the laymen credit for intelligence, and we need to understand their preconceptions. What people think magicians do is VERY pertinent to how we perform. If you don't think so... Quit. Sorry, I can't put it any simpler. Does what the audience think about magic, before we perform for them, matter? Of course it does.

If you want to close the case, that's totally fine. You know what? For your sake, case closed. I'll improve my magic, and you stay right down there. I'll take those tough spectators, I'll take my magic further, if you want to be so close-minded and arrogant as to say case closed. If you can't see, then go to sleep while I do the real work.

Continued next post...
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Part 2 of 2 of the post.

something that I think people should realize that sometimes it doesn't matter if the spectator has seen a certain trick before, sure, maybe it's sometimes better that you perform one that they haven't before.


But several, several times I have performed effects and my spectators have said, "Oh my gosh.... you are amazing. Seriously, I've seen this trick done on tv, my brother has done it to me before, but just the way you did it...... man.... I was just hooked!! Even though I know how it's done, somehow, you knocked me out!"


Right there!!!! You see? I have my own personal way of touching people emotionally, and even though they have seen it before and even know how it's done, you can still bring them experiences that they have never felt before! And that's true magic there!

I totally agree James. It doesn't matter if someone has seen a specific effect. I think a LOT of people have totally missed the point here. All I can say is, read better. I am talking about experiences and expectations, not individual effects. Of course laymen don't follow the magic market. If, as some people above have suggested, you are using that as your argument to counter mine, I'm sorry, you're just being pretentious and generally incorrect.

This is a great story and a great experience though. The key is originality. I don't care how you create your originality. All I'm arguing is that a large majority of the members on this forum couldn't do what you did. Maybe that's why people are attacking my post, because I'm essentially questioning their abilities. Oh well. Don't take it too personally guys. But because a large amount of people couldn't do what you do, the appearance of DVDs such as TOoC and Trilogy stifle what potential creativity they could come up with. It's all too tempting to perform the same routine as everyone else, because it's popular, and avoid originality.

The original magicians will always be original. But for the rest, I don't think this helps originality at all.

Some great posts, some appalling posts, and a large majority of *facepalm* you've totally missed the point posts. Please try and understand my argument better before you embarrass yourselves again. Thanks for replying guys.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
[R.C];180941 said:
The tricks you are performing, and sleights involved, are not what's important.
It's your presentation, style, and connection with your spectator. They don't know if you used a double undercut, or did a pass. Thats not what they're watching.
This DVD isn't such a great thing because many of the kids out there don't make it original. This wouldn't be a problem if they would add their own twist into the mix.

THANK THE LORD, A MODICUM OF INTELLIGENCE!

I was starting to get frustrated at people who didn't get my post at all.

Creative people will always be creative. But most aren't, so TOoc can very easily only compound the problem. Be popular! Do the popular thing! Show them what you can do! My post wasn't intended to criticise TOoC per se - but more to explain why originality is important.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Wow this thread is nuts. Hey everyone, why are you all getting True Astonishments? After all, thousands of other "kids" are getting it and now everyone will be performing stuff from it. I Don't want to feel unoriginal.

Guys, originality may come from what effects, you do, but there is another aspect (Not saying there aren't more)... HOW you perform the effects. That is what makes real originality. Here is a quote I read on here a little while ago. Not sure who said it. "Its not the trick, its the magician." Well while I may disagree with that quote a bit, the message is mostly true.

Also, about the effects being known... Who cares? I perform effects like Believe DAILY. You know what? I've never seen someone say to me "I SAW THAT ON YOUTUBE!"

TOOC on T11 is the book in video form and has everything the original has along with some more ideas, tricks, handlings, and whatever else Kenner decided to put on this project.

As someone else pointed out, I may as well not even perform a double lift anymore. After all, its one of the most known sleights in all of card magic.

Its ok not to want something, but at least make your reasons valid when you feel the need to publicly say why.. I'll be getting this DVD set. I'm also getting True Astonishments. I'll also continue to buy from here because I enjoy the products here.

If you don't like it don't buy it. You can voice your opinions, but to make such biased comments that shouldn't even be considered valid..... Wow....

-Doug

I have answered every aspect of your argument in some form in my numerous replies in this thread. So I will be brief, and not elaborate.

Paragraphs 1 & 2: Read my post right above this one, because you've missed the point. I find it ironic that you're calling my comments biased, when you obviously haven't actually taken in all of my original post.

Paragraphs 3 & 4: For the 1324638712659876142th time, I am talking about preconceptions. If you want to know why that's important, read my posts, fully this time, and think about them.

Paragraph 5: Sorry, but that happened to be the dumbest reply to this topic so far. Comparing a sleight to a routine? I hope you know the difference. Replied to this post three posts previous.

Paragraphs 6 & 7: Well again, you seem to have missed a lot of messages in my posts, so I find it highly ironic that you're criticising them. I won't even pretend to answer people masquerading understanding.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Guys, I know I've posted many times in a row and I do apologise. But I'm really shocked at how much people have just completely missed or ignored in my original post. There are so many messages people have completely skipped in favour of simply criticising my post with replies which completely miss the point. I expected to cop a few replies, but please, before you criticise or insult me, re-read my original post. You're only making an absolute fool of yourselves.
 
Dec 10, 2007
126
0
Slovenia (Europe)
I think the intelligent and experienced people on here got your post.
I did. Does that make me intelligent and experienced?
Anyway, I don't perform known effects that much. I have started to look into hidden handlings, old stuff, that is hidden in books with tons of good information, and provides you the canvas you paint your personality in.

If you look at it, who performs badly and the same as everyone else? Young teenagers, looking for attention. I have said that, and I stay behind it. I know, because I was one of them.

It's all about learning. That's why I probably will not ever get a single effect DVD again. I prefer a book like Pure Effect, that teaches you just so much more. Will a 13 year old boy with a deck of cards buy it? Not if he doesn't know he should.

Let's tell him then. If just companies put some more efforts in this, stating starting points and bad points in magic.

-Seb
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Guys, Praetorite has a very good point here. I'll give you an example: one of my favourite tricks of all time is from TOoC, namely Sybil the Trick. It's brilliant, and I love it in every possible way ;)
Now how many people here regularly perform Sybil the Trick? A few, I would guess, not many. And now, how about 5Speed? A lot more. In fact, I youtube searched for '5Speed magic trick'. Loads of hits, all doing 5Speed. I then searched 'In Ten City magic trick'; about 3 hits showing the trick, and the rest was irrelevant. 'Sybil the Trick magic trick'. All people doing flourishes. '3 2 Gone magic trick'. The first hits were 'kid shoves needle through arm' and 'Runescape halloween event 2008 guide'. Why? Why are people performing 5Speed so much, and forsaking other tricks which, in my opinion, are so much better? Because 5Speed is a 1on1 at T11. Because it has been made into a video, and sold through T11, an infinitely large number of youtube kids feel the need to impress the audience that is their camera with it. I don't want to be just another 5Speeder.
I think the other point Praet was trying to make it that doing an overused trick is fine, as long as it is yours. This doesn't mean replacing moves with other moves, it's about what other people see. I bet that if I performed my take on 3, 2, Gone, most of you wouldn't realize it was that trick (by the way, don't ask me to, because it's nowhere near performance standard). Now I have real difficulty adding my own style to a trick, I find it hard to make my own patter and put my own fizz into it, but I try. There's very few tricks I do that aren't mine in some way. This means that my repertoire isn't particularly large, but at least it's my repertoire, not everyone elses.
Sorry if that sounded pretty incomprehensable, it's first thing on a Sunday morning. Thanks for reading.
 
Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
Books arent 'mainstream' now. The World is changing, Economy Evolving. Current trend in the market is 'Visual, Fast, Hard hitting'. This applies to things besides Magic. Yes, there's a world BESIDES magic. Why Stick with that Stove-top Kettle when you can buy an instant Purifying electric kettle? Why the latest Dyson Vacuum cleaner when you can pick the rubbish off the floor yourself, or use a broom.

its a simple argument, with a simple answer: because its more convenient.

Lets take that into magic terms.

Book = hard to find, unless you had to spalsh out on cash and spent time on reading, you wont find out about X effect or Y effect.

Dvd = Hard to find. wait.. what? Yeah, it is hard to find, but there are MARKETING TACTICS employed to create brand awareness for the bloody product. these are called 'Teasers' or 'Trailers'. you also have YOUTUBE and other Media sharing sites. these 'Teasers' can be put there in order to create more awareness for the product.

When the F*** do you see Teasers for a book? Sure you may see a couple here and there, But i never saw an AoA Teaser/Video/whatever. Never Knew about it until it got mentioned a couple of times, then decided to research it.

Anyways- I find it a bit insulting that anyone who thinks differently to the topic starter is deemed 'uninteligent'. He may not have said it directly, but there are subtle notions onto saying that you are an idiot if you disagree with him.

Note that i have nothing againts Prae, aside from the fact that i cant bloody spell his name. I just have a varied opinion towards his, and a more inclined opinion towards what my Counter-Twin-Ninja-Moderator buddy has said (Sinful, The moderator. not me. lol)

If you dont like it, Dont buy it.

Edit:

To counter argue, Sinful made a completely valid argument. You're presenting a case whereas you have strong emotions towards a certain scenario, you're also not presenting counter arguments and merely following your emotions in the lines of "Goddamnit, if they release TooC the DVD, eveyrone will be performing X and Y effects!".

Still dont know why you're arguing. What, originality? Dont make me laugh. If that was the case, Expert at the card table would own the **** out of Crash course by E, the 1 on 1's here, and most of Penguin's stuff. it can also possibly own the **** out of any other goddamn Sleight-of-hand- Books.

Cheers,

-Sin
 
Last edited by a moderator:
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Books arent 'mainstream' now. The World is changing, Economy Evolving. Current trend in the market is 'Visual, Fast, Hard hitting'. This applies to things besides Magic. Yes, there's a world BESIDES magic. Why Stick with that Stove-top Kettle when you can buy an instant Purifying electric kettle? Why the latest Dyson Vacuum cleaner when you can pick the rubbish off the floor yourself, or use a broom.

its a simple argument, with a simple answer: because its more convenient.

Lets take that into magic terms.

This is a fair point, however it doesn't justify doing so. Yes, using the latest vacuum might be more convenient than cleaning by hand, but when you do, you sacrifice a little electricity and contribute to global warming. Same with driving a car. Quicker, easier, but does this make it right? Surely saving the planet we and our children live in is more important than saving a few minutes on our half?
Let's take THIS into magic terms.
I'll take your standard over-popularized and visual trick, let's say Tivo 2. Now if I went around performing this trick, two things would happen that would decrease the level of performance.

1: The spectator would be left with a feeling of 'Woah, that was quick, didn't see that coming. Cool trick, can you do anything else?'

2: I would be thinking 'I'm just doing the same trick as everything else, I'm just a common magician with no originality'. The main problem with this is that I wouldn't be putting all my energy into it, I wouldn't enjoy performing it. This would significantly lower the standard of the trick.

Now for those of you that say you do magic for the spectator, that's bull****. Sorry, but it is. How many people can honestly say that they do magic, that they spend hours of every day of every week practicing so that they can make somebody else's day? No, we do magic because we enjoy performing, we enjoy bringing the astonishment to others, or because we enjoy getting payed. We do it for ourselves. And if you enjoy doing the same old tricks, fine. Your choice. But I for one definitely feel much happier showing someone a trick that I put effort into, not necessarily created, but added to. It's hard, yes, but it pays off. Would you rather go around showing somebody else's painting and have people tell you it's really good, or do the same thing with your own painting? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but in my opinion, anybody that isn't adding to the tricks they perform isn't doing them to the best of their potential. And because of this, both your experience and the spectator's experience suffer. Disagree if you will, if you want to try protecting your performance, but this is what I think.
Thanks for reading.
 
Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
Now for those of you that say you do magic for the spectator, that's bull****. Sorry, but it is. How many people can honestly say that they do magic, that they spend hours of every day of every week practicing so that they can make somebody else's day? No, we do magic because we enjoy performing, we enjoy bringing the astonishment to others, or because we enjoy getting payed. We do it for ourselves. And if you enjoy doing the same old tricks, fine. Your choice. But I for one definitely feel much happier showing someone a trick that I put effort into, not necessarily created, but added to. It's hard, yes, but it pays off. Would you rather go around showing somebody else's painting and have people tell you it's really good, or do the same thing with your own painting? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but in my opinion, anybody that isn't adding to the tricks they perform isn't doing them to the best of their potential. And because of this, both your experience and the spectator's experience suffer. Disagree if you will, if you want to try protecting your performance, but this is what I think.
Thanks for reading.

That was beautiful man. Very good point there.

anyways, to add to that, i perform cause i enjoy seeing audience reaction. and 'spreading the love' and all that hippy crap.


This is a fair point, however it doesn't justify doing so. Yes, using the latest vacuum might be more convenient than cleaning by hand, but when you do, you sacrifice a little electricity and contribute to global warming. Same with driving a car. Quicker, easier, but does this make it right? Surely saving the planet we and our children live in is more important than saving a few minutes on our half?
Let's take THIS into magic terms.

Who said everyone would want to save the world? For arguments sake- most people dont even pay attention that they're burning their lungs through smoking cigarettes. they do it for the short term reward, which is the nicotine.

In magic terms, They do Tivo 2.0 for a quick magic trick, and a quick audience reaction.

"BUT OH MY GOD, YOU JUST SAID WHAT HE SAID LOLOL"

That's right. Because there's no denying it. Majority of people Long for Short term answers for their lifelong problems.

Women Shop for things. But most of them dont think of the aftermath
Men want sex. But dont neccessarily care about the relationship or the girl. (At some points)

Seriously, just think about it. Think about Short term goals and Long term goals.

Also may i add:

1: The spectator would be left with a feeling of 'Woah, that was quick, didn't see that coming. Cool trick, can you do anything else?'

2: I would be thinking 'I'm just doing the same trick as everything else, I'm just a common magician with no originality'. The main problem with this is that I wouldn't be putting all my energy into it, I wouldn't enjoy performing it. This would significantly lower the standard of the trick.


You're putting the words onto a spectator's mouth, and you're being negative about it. Its almost as if you're saying that spectators will follow that same exact format whenever Tivo.2391792371983713 is performed. Every spectator is different, and every spectator will react differently.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,393
7
35
Belgrade, Serbia
I just red every post in this thread, in one reading lol
(no, i don't expect a cookie).

I think the main problem of this thread, and the main reason for this many replies is that Praetoritewong didn't express himself well enough in his original post. He was contradictory to himself. First part of his original post is about everybody knowing queens and TiVo and Trilogy and TOoC, and that it will be all over youtube and everyone will perform those effects.
And second part of his post is about originality of presentation of effects... which has nothing to do with the above...
So everyone attacked him for saying that he wont by TOoC because of the youtube kids, and he was trying to defend the other part of that post, the originality of effects and presentation.

But, Prae, are you really trying to say that you never performed ACR, 2CM, Biddle trick, Out of this World, Reset, etc?
Oh you did, but with your own presentation, your own personalization of those effects.... Well, just do that same thing with TOoC...

@Zapper: Are there really that many magicians in Slovenia, for this to be your own problem?
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Books arent 'mainstream' now. The World is changing, Economy Evolving. Current trend in the market is 'Visual, Fast, Hard hitting'. This applies to things besides Magic. Yes, there's a world BESIDES magic. Why Stick with that Stove-top Kettle when you can buy an instant Purifying electric kettle? Why the latest Dyson Vacuum cleaner when you can pick the rubbish off the floor yourself, or use a broom.

its a simple argument, with a simple answer: because its more convenient.

Lets take that into magic terms.

Book = hard to find, unless you had to spalsh out on cash and spent time on reading, you wont find out about X effect or Y effect.

Dvd = Hard to find. wait.. what? Yeah, it is hard to find, but there are MARKETING TACTICS employed to create brand awareness for the bloody product. these are called 'Teasers' or 'Trailers'. you also have YOUTUBE and other Media sharing sites. these 'Teasers' can be put there in order to create more awareness for the product.

When the F*** do you see Teasers for a book? Sure you may see a couple here and there, But i never saw an AoA Teaser/Video/whatever. Never Knew about it until it got mentioned a couple of times, then decided to research it.

Anyways- I find it a bit insulting that anyone who thinks differently to the topic starter is deemed 'uninteligent'. He may not have said it directly, but there are subtle notions onto saying that you are an idiot if you disagree with him.

Hey Sinful07, thanks for your reply.

This is not a book vs DVD argument - I could offer a counterargument to what you've said in the arguments above, but I won't and frankly I can't be bothered, because it's not what I'm arguing.

In response to the last paragraph above, I think you need to read the entire thread. Notice my reply to jonraiker who put forward an excellent argument against my post, despite not agreeing with him. Then notice my replies to several posts thereafter that simply did not understand the debate. The implication simply is this: If you don't understand what I'm saying, as many haven't, don't criticise me for saying it. Don't criticise me for something I'm not arguing. If you do, yes, I have no qualms saying this, you're an idiot.

Note that i have nothing againts Prae, aside from the fact that i cant bloody spell his name. I just have a varied opinion towards his, and a more inclined opinion towards what my Counter-Twin-Ninja-Moderator buddy has said (Sinful, The moderator. not me. lol)

If you dont like it, Dont buy it.

Edit:

To counter argue, Sinful made a completely valid argument. You're presenting a case whereas you have strong emotions towards a certain scenario, you're also not presenting counter arguments and merely following your emotions in the lines of "Goddamnit, if they release TooC the DVD, eveyrone will be performing X and Y effects!".

Still dont know why you're arguing. What, originality? Dont make me laugh. If that was the case, Expert at the card table would own the **** out of Crash course by E, the 1 on 1's here, and most of Penguin's stuff. it can also possibly own the **** out of any other goddamn Sleight-of-hand- Books.

Cheers,

-Sin

Ditto, nothing against you. I can understand what you are saying about emotions. I disagree with how Sinful put it, considering that he did not seem to grasp my argument. However I won't deny this criticism from you, given that it's about me and I can't possibly be objective about it.

As for your second paragraph... If you don't understand, re-read my post till you do, or simply don't reply to my counterargument.

But I do find most of the paragraph silly. Expert at the Card Table does own Crash Course, the 1-on-1's here, most of Penguin's stuff, and many/most sleight of hand books. Ask any of the contemporary masters, I challenge you to find one contemporary master of the art, who finds Crash Course better than Expert at the Card Table. Ask one well-known, skilful magician, ask any master, anyone who's been in the art for decades. Ask Carney, ask Ascanio, ask Tamariz, etc., and I guarantee not one of them will rate Crash Course above Erdnase. I don't know about you, but to improve my magic is ultimately my goal, so I'll choose to go this way. So yes, given that Erdnase clearly is better than those sources you listed, I am indeed arguing for originality.

That was beautiful man. Very good point there.

anyways, to add to that, i perform cause i enjoy seeing audience reaction. and 'spreading the love' and all that hippy crap.

Who said everyone would want to save the world? For arguments sake- most people dont even pay attention that they're burning their lungs through smoking cigarettes. they do it for the short term reward, which is the nicotine.

In magic terms, They do Tivo 2.0 for a quick magic trick, and a quick audience reaction.

"BUT OH MY GOD, YOU JUST SAID WHAT HE SAID LOLOL"

That's right. Because there's no denying it. Majority of people Long for Short term answers for their lifelong problems.

Women Shop for things. But most of them dont think of the aftermath
Men want sex. But dont neccessarily care about the relationship or the girl. (At some points)

Seriously, just think about it. Think about Short term goals and Long term goals.

Also may i add:

You're putting the words onto a spectator's mouth, and you're being negative about it. Its almost as if you're saying that spectators will follow that same exact format whenever Tivo.2391792371983713 is performed. Every spectator is different, and every spectator will react differently.

The problem with this is the same as your comment about men and women: they're generalisations. For some portion of the time, they will be correct. As several of my posts have addressed, I feel very strongly in trying my best to appeal 100% to spectators rather than 90%. I've seen a lot of topics here about spectators who don't appreciate magic, and many more about hecklers. Well I say from experience that it's the magician's fault, and my solution to that has always been, and successfully so, originality.

I just red every post in this thread, in one reading lol
(no, i don't expect a cookie).

I think the main problem of this thread, and the main reason for this many replies is that Praetoritewong didn't express himself well enough in his original post. He was contradictory to himself. First part of his original post is about everybody knowing queens and TiVo and Trilogy and TOoC, and that it will be all over youtube and everyone will perform those effects.
And second part of his post is about originality of presentation of effects... which has nothing to do with the above...
So everyone attacked him for saying that he wont by TOoC because of the youtube kids, and he was trying to defend the other part of that post, the originality of effects and presentation.

But, Prae, are you really trying to say that you never performed ACR, 2CM, Biddle trick, Out of this World, Reset, etc?
Oh you did, but with your own presentation, your own personalization of those effects.... Well, just do that same thing with TOoC...

@Zapper: Are there really that many magicians in Slovenia, for this to be your own problem?

Thanks for your post Toby. In regards to your first half of the post, I won't disagree. Although I would like to clarify that it's not simply YouTube kids performing it that bothers me. The fact that 20 of my friends perform Tivo is enough to put me off it. And guess what? They all perform it pretty much the same. Sure, in theory you can make your Tivo or Queens different. How many people actually have? Actually, I've never seen a performance of the Queens which has been personalised to the performer, never. It's harder than we think. And even if we create some clever presentation - sometimes, the conditions of street magic mean that we can't always present a deep, emotional and astonishing trick. If you're busking, you want quick and visual, for example. That simply further restricts the possibilities. Now I've had a lot of people saying, just make your own presentation. Be original. I challenge anyone who has said this to show me a version of the Queens which is personalised. Not just a different change, but actually present it and make it different, because I've never seen one. It's harder than you think.

Which leads me onto your question. No, I've performed those tricks in the past. And now?

ACR: I have a special presentation for ACR. Yes, I do perform this. But note, a special presentation, by which I mean, it's not suitable as an opening trick or really for most street magic at all. But yes, I've personalised this presentation.

2CM: I don't perform it anymore. I've yet to see a different presentation, and again many of my friends perform it.

Biddle: Same as above.

OotW: I use a very obscure and unknown handling which I dug out and personally adapted using 4 different Out of this World handlings and suggestions. So I would say that mine is sufficiently me, and sufficiently different.

Reset: I don't perform this for laymen for the same reason as 2CM and Biddle. I learnt it a fair while ago.

So yeah, I'm sure you could personalise and make a few tricks from TOoC different. It's more challenging than we think, and in my opinion it'll become just like Tivo and Queens, which really, is just shocking. Alternatively, I could spend my money on a book with completely original effects that practically no-one uses and be different. Which has gotten me a gig, so I'll be sticking to this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dec 10, 2007
126
0
Slovenia (Europe)
Actually you would be surprised.
It isn't MY problem, I don't SUFFER by it. I just expressed my thoughts. Or I guess I can't because my country is small and in shape of a chicken :)?

By performing hidden stuff, there is so less danger in laypeople finding the explanations of the effects. Not that they would otherwise, but with today magic company's advertising, exposure is just bigger and bigger. It's about the mass quantity of people and the need of money, that soon changes to greed. If there weren't all these "Street magic training facilities" (Which is just a terrible name), there wouldn't be that much exposure.

The thing is, from what I see, there are more and more magicians. Also more and more bad magicians. Who exposes stuff? Magicians.

-Seb
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Who said everyone would want to save the world? For arguments sake- most people dont even pay attention that they're burning their lungs through smoking cigarettes. they do it for the short term reward, which is the nicotine.

In magic terms, They do Tivo 2.0 for a quick magic trick, and a quick audience reaction.

"BUT OH MY GOD, YOU JUST SAID WHAT HE SAID LOLOL"

That's right. Because there's no denying it. Majority of people Long for Short term answers for their lifelong problems.

Women Shop for things. But most of them dont think of the aftermath
Men want sex. But dont neccessarily care about the relationship or the girl. (At some points)

Seriously, just think about it. Think about Short term goals and Long term goals.
Just because people don't think about the long term goals doesn't mean they shouldn't. Because when they do, it improves things.
Also may i add:
You may indeed.

You're putting the words onto a spectator's mouth, and you're being negative about it. Its almost as if you're saying that spectators will follow that same exact format whenever Tivo.2391792371983713 is performed. Every spectator is different, and every spectator will react differently.
Everybody is going to react differently, but you're never going to change somebody's life with something like Tivo 2. You may say that this is based on performance, but if you think your performance of Tivo 2 is that good, I would love to see a video of it (this was directed at everyone, not just Sinful). Please note that this has nothing to do with skill, purely presentation. And if it doesn't change lives, it could be improved. I'm not saying that every trick I do changes lives, far from it, but this doesn't mean that I give up and resort to a quick, visual reactiorgasm. I am trying to make my tricks the best they can be, and I think that this definitely does help.
 
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