Two extremes, one industry.

[GriffinJay]

Let's face it, there are two extremes. Two wrong schools of thought indeed:-

:: No ripping extreme: These people are so cautious that it makes me bite my deck! They won't release a super transport card routine because it involves a double lift!. Their excuse = "We did not invent the double lift, so we will not release any new effect that is based on the double lift!"

:: Ripping Extreme: These guys will teach others' magic for getting famous. They won't even add a bit to the original effect and will compile them in one DVD that would probably go like "Street magic performer" or "Do magic" etc. Their excuses are so lame that I want to bite my deck eg. they will teach Wayne Houchin's THREAD and will give the excuse "But I am using a blue thread!"
They sometimes credit the creator of the effect, but expose his effect for free

::Theory11: which extreme?

Theory11 has been good with all original effects but now what the one on one's are offering like Classic double lift or snap change is worrying me that this website may also turn into an unoriginal one.

What do you think about this? does T11 have any right to release videos of effects that the artists did not create? If just adding tips and variation gives them a right to do so?

wanted your opinions.

 

[funkymonkey477]

if the effects are classic's such as the double lift and snap change the absolutely

 

[GriffinJay]

if the effects are classic's such as the double lift and snap change the absolutely

Who decides what is classic, can I say that CONTROL is a classic and i will teach it?

 

[visualartist]

Who decides what is classic, can I say that CONTROL is a classic and i will teach it?

look up the definition of classic then get back to that thought.

 

[Lyle Borders]

clas⋅sic
  /ˈklæsɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [klas-ik] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of the first or highest quality, class, or rank: a classic piece of work.
2. serving as a standard, model, or guide: the classic method of teaching arithmetic.
3. of or pertaining to Greek and Roman antiquity, esp. with reference to literature and art.
4. modeled upon or imitating the style or thought of ancient Greece and Rome: The 17th and 18th centuries were obsessed with classic ideals.
5. of or adhering to an established set of artistic or scientific standards or methods: a classic example of mid-Victorian architecture.
6. basic; fundamental: the classic rules of warfare.
7. of enduring interest, quality, or style: a classic design; classic clothes.
8. of literary or historical renown: the classic haunts of famous writers.
9. traditional or typical: a classic comedy routine.
10. definitive: the classic reference work on ornithology.
11. of or pertaining to automobiles distinguished by elegant styling, outstanding engineering, and fine workmanship that were built between about 1925 and 1948.


Of the things that can apply to magic here, who is to decide (I am playing devil's advocate because this argument just genuinely ticks me off due to the lack of intelligent posts that is destined to follow) why something like "Control" is or is not a classic? The work is of very high order as far as magic goes, in recent times has been the standard for pulse stopping, it adheres to our classic standards of deception, is very much basic and fundamental pertaining to deception, it is a very typical (since its release) method, and depending on who you ask, it is now the definitive method for achieving that illusion.


In fact, the only real argument against this would be that Houchin's Control has not had enough time to "prove" itself as a classic. This tells me that a classic has to be old. I don't buy it.

People on both "extreme" ends are likely BOTH wrong. The answer, as usual, likely lies somewhere in the middle, and both sides will be too blind to find it.

L

 

[GriffinJay]

If an effect is of high excellence and is used very often, it is a classic. but there is no authority that names the classics.

There must be a magic think tank for this, located in the magic castle I suggest.:

 

[timsilva]

Man, you are thinking way too much about this.

Theory11 is a magic teaching business. The double lift is regarded as an essential utility move for all card magicians. Why wouldn't they teach it here? Think about new comers, not everyone who comes to this website has been in magic for many years like some of us have.

Lots of places teach the double lift, so why would it be unethical to teach it here? And it's Jason England we're talking about! He takes on the role of a historian and leaves no detail unnoticed. It's not some sucker teaching it.

Yeah, they have a legal right to produce instructional videos on previously published effects. I'm sure they find the necessary permission, and not to mention, they give complete, in depth credits and respects to the creators. Now for the double lift... no one knows who invented it anyways.

So in conclusion, I hear your point, but you completely forgot to look at this situation from any others perspectives outside of your own. They don't exist to make you happy, they are offering a service to a fairly broad range of people. Sometimes people seem to forget that we live in a monetary system, people have jobs and they need to do these jobs to make money in order to survive.

Theory11 in my opinion is not in extreme in either of those two ways. Bayme is explicitly down to earth, and doesn't do anything shady (Except for the XCM haterZ consp1racy against De'EPIC FAIL'vo!!!). But in all seriousness, look at the old news posting from when Digital Dissolve came out and there were crediting issues. The PR was handled so well. Ethics are not taken lightly around here, which is why I buy there products. Nuff said.

 

[Justin.Morris]

Just because you may know what palming is, or what a double lift is, or even the Zarrow shuffle, that in no way shape or form means that you:
a) can perform it well, let alone perfectly
b) know all there is to know about the sleight.

A good example of this (non theory 11) was the Virts tutorial on the spring. I did the spring all the time and did it very well. However after watching their tutorial, it became even better simply because of the new way I had to hold the deck. That would have been worth a few bucks to pay for even.

The fact that T11 teaches these things well means that everyone can likely benefit from it.

So the insinuated accusation on un-originality is a very unfair one.

The effects they have released seem to be original*.

(keep in mind that original does not mean free from any inspiration - a common mistake)

It sorta bugs me that so many whiners complain about this. You don't come in someones house and complain that you don't like the curtains and the decor - where's the respect?.

 

[timsilva]

^^Great point.

Many teachers now days are not just teaching a secret. They are teaching knowledge accumalated about those secrets after years of experience and discussion with other professionals.

If you think teaching a double lift is telling someone that "you just turn over two cards as one," you are leaving out the truly important information. I would even argue that you haven't taught them anything of practical use.

 

[ajp500]

The dirty little secert is, it doesnt matter what this site does it matters what you do.

 

[Brad Henderson]

1) I don't know anyone in the magic establishment that would advocate no releasing a routine because it is based on pre-existing techniques. This 'school of thought' does not exist that I know of.

2) Do we condemn ezra pound, shakespeare, or robert frost for writing poems that follow the established rules of grammar and syntax?

Do we condemn Bach for writing cantatas that employ major and minor scales?

Without the basic toolset - the vocabulary of magic - you cannot hope to create material that is viable for real world performance. A poet can make words do things we have never dreamt of, but it doesn't make him or her any less original for using words

 

[RDChopper]

Theory11 has been good with all original effects but now what the one on one's are offering like Classic double lift or snap change is worrying me that this website may also turn into an unoriginal one.

Usual response

I'm not quite sure how having one of the best card handlers in the world today personally teaching what is arguably the most iconic false shuffle of the past century - with explicit permission - would be disappointing. To me, it's one of our most exciting 1-on-1 releases to date. But to each his own.