What do you guys think of eBay?

[Mr.Ection]

Okay so i think ebay is pretty cool. But some people say that it's wrong to resell dvd's that you purchased because it's kind of like stealing from the creator. Because if someone buys their dvd from you then thats one less sale that the creator gets.

First of all i'm not sure if i agree with that logic. Secondly ebay is great for reasons like this. I was searching for rare magic books and dvd and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140313638099&_trkparms=tab=Selling

Now this is a dvd that was only produced for like a week and they stopped selling it for some B.S. reason but there is no way to get your hands on one of these unless someone who already owns it decides to sell it like this guy is.

SO. do you guys agree with the idea that ebay takes from creators or do you think only good things can come of it. Or are you somewhere in between?

 

[MagicLemonBird]

I mean, I can believe that some people think that it is stealing from the creator because you resell it but then, it also can save things such as Warning by Daniel Garcia. I suggest you follow what you believe in.
P.S- You really shouldn't have showed us there is a bid on Warning because now everybody is going to start bidding.

 

[Magic Man4293]

Here is my thread on the subject.


http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=13141


-Michael

 

[jprace]

I like Ebay.
Must be one hell of a guy to sell that DVD--do you know him Mr.Ection?
lol

 

[Jessb1]

you should definitely invest. its one of those recession proof companies. no matter what people always have crap they want to sell.

 

[Mr.Ection]

I mean, I can believe that some people think that it is stealing from the creator because you resell it but then, it also can save things such as Warning by Daniel Garcia. I suggest you follow what you believe in.
P.S- You really shouldn't have showed us there is a bid on Warning because now everybody is going to start bidding.

oh shoot you're right. Dangit! well hopefully since the hype for this dvd died like at least a year ago, not many people will be interested in it.

 

[descartes]

I saw Michael Nasello's thread and I was disturbed at the way the question was framed. You can't be serious about equating buying something from Ebay to downloading a torrent. There is a world of difference.

Let us forget about magic books/dvds for a moment. Think about any work of fiction. There are so many bookstores that sell second hand books and there are so many libraries in the world where people can borrow and read books for free. The arguments that the author is somehow being ripped off by libraries and second hand bookstores is ridiculous. I believe the same argument should hold for magic books as well.

Of course, the natural rebuttal is that magic books contain secrets and that these should not be resold. In magic, if you aren't out to expose methods, what is the use of secrets? The people selling stuff on Ebay are NOT exposing anything. The secret of any method is therefore relevant only if the person selling it is also performing the trick regularly.

When a person sells a book or a dvd, there are two things going on. First, the buyer is paying some money up front for knowledge (of the techniques/methods of sleights and tricks). Secondly, once you buy the book or dvd, you get the rights to perform the trick as well.

While it is not legally binding, one could say that the ethical thing for someone selling a trick to do is to not perform it again once he has sold it. In other words, by selling it, he gives up the right to perform the exact trick again.

 

[Flyspazz]

I love all the effort and excuses everyone comes up with in their attempt to try to justify these actions.

If you’re reselling or buying it doesn’t really matter your still part of the process. Whether it’s a regular book, cd, magic dvd or magic book has no bearing. You’re using the creator or artists work for yourself and credit is going to them or their publishers. It does have an overall effect on them. Just ask a band or an author or a distributer, they’ll tell you. That’s why it’s illegal. It’s called stealing.

So if you want to save a couple of bucks no ones going to stop you but don’t try to mask it or pawn it off with some feeble reasoning. Call yourself what you are. A thief.

 

[aJohnson]

I have mixed feelings, I never buy things which are being re-sold. But I don't mind buying from ebay stores because they're like any other stores.

 

[praetoritevong]

I love all the effort and excuses everyone comes up with in their attempt to try to justify these actions.

If you’re reselling or buying it doesn’t really matter your still part of the process. Whether it’s a regular book, cd, magic dvd or magic book has no bearing. You’re using the creator or artists work for yourself and credit is going to them or their publishers. It does have an overall effect on them. Just ask a band or an author or a distributer, they’ll tell you. That’s why it’s illegal. It’s called stealing.

So if you want to save a couple of bucks no ones going to stop you but don’t try to mask it or pawn it off with some feeble reasoning. Call yourself what you are. A thief.

So does this mean that all second hand bookshops are thieves? Am I stealing from John Osbourne because I bought his play from my local bookshop? What if I bought it from my online bookshop?

I'm interested in what you would say to descartes' post.

 

[Flyspazz]

So does this mean that all second hand bookshops are thieves?

The only way I can see them not being is if the book is discontinued. Otherwise yes. Is the author or publishing house receiving anything from the sale?

I don’t know about you but I don’t like working for free.

Am I stealing from John Osbourne because I bought his play from my local bookshop? What if I bought it from my online bookshop?

Are you buying it new or used?

I'm interested in what you would say to descartes' post.

I already responded to it. Was there a specific part that was confusing?

I think you might be reaching here but facts are facts.

 

[Steerpike]

So if you want to save a couple of bucks no ones going to stop you but don’t try to mask it or pawn it off with some feeble reasoning. Call yourself what you are. A thief.

Magicians give away stuff they don't use all the time either for a trifling sum to a friend or for free. They share each other's libraries constantly. When you've made it to the big time, friends start sending you review copies of their new material to get feedback, quotes, etc. And then there are public libraries...

I think it's time the magic community stopped trying to claim the moral high ground and developed a realistic perspective on how the real world works.

 

[Flyspazz]

When you've made it to the big time, friends start sending you review copies of their new material to get feedback, quotes, etc.

That’s at the creators discretion.

And then there are public libraries...

And they purchased their books.

I think it's time the magic community stopped trying to claim the moral high ground and developed a realistic perspective on how the real world works.

Again, you can try to justify it all you want but that doesnt change what it is. If you buy a Steven King novel from a second hand store did he or his publisher benefit in any way from his works. I'm not saying it doesnt happen I'm only saying its not right.

 

[Steerpike]

Again, you can try to justify it all you want but that doesnt change what it is. If you buy a Steven King novel from a second hand store did he or his publisher benefit in any way from his works. I'm not saying it doesnt happen I'm only saying its not right.

Do you really think Steven King gives a flying **** whether or not you bought his book at a used book store? And if the publishers really cared, why haven't they done anything to put make used bookstores illegal?

And really, it sounds to me like you're the one trying to justify your own stance by taking one complaint and making it a one-size-fits-all issue to create the impression of moral consistency.

I don't see the world in black and white. Never have. I think too much about nuances to do that. Hence, I refuse to get my rectum in a knot over people buying copies of magic books on eBay. If I'm going to get good and pissed off, there are a lot of better things to spend that energy on.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

If you buy the product it's YOURS! Sell it, trade it there is absolutley nothing wrong with it. It is your property the creator sold it to the public its all part of business. If you give it away it's your decision whether wise or not but it is yours to do so with. Nit pick find something wrong with anything is whats wrong with the magic community. Give it up and lets get back to the magic.

 

[descartes]

@Flyspazz

You are too quick to call buyers of second hand books thieves. Take a step back and relax for a moment before you pass judgement this way.

By your arguments, libraries should no longer exist because lots of people might just read a book once and never buy it. I'm sure there are many libraries that carry magic books. Are you going to accuse them of being thieves?

One important point that I mentioned was that if someone was selling a trick, it would be truly ethical of him to no longer perform it. Unlike the masked magician, who seems to profit from mere exposure, the real value of a magic secret for most magicians is when they go out and perform the trick. If you stop performing the trick, you no longer profit from it.

Therefore, if you have bought a magic book, you have essentially bought the right the perform the tricks in it. By selling it, you are reselling these rights and hence you could say it is unethical to perform exactly the same trick in future.

Take a moment to think about this point.

 

[MagicUK]

What a ridiculous argument! There are far worse problems in magic i.e. exposure on Youtube
If it was in fact illegal to trade/sell/buy used copies of any media then ebay would not be allowed to operate in the first place!

And from a producer's point of view you have to price your product with the assumption that one customer will not keep that product forever. Therefore the point that the producer makes no money on any subsequent sales is redundant because they made enough profit on that unit in the initial sale. You could argue that the person who bought the reduced unit second hand would have bought a new copy, but that isn't always the case.

 

[Mystifier1]

I personally would never buy a used DVD.

 

[Flyspazz]

Do you really think Steven King gives a flying **** whether or not you bought his book at a used book store?

I dont know if he does or not but that doesnt change the fact that you stole from him. Why dont you go buy a PDF from Sean Fields then send him an email telling him your going to share it with your group of friends so they dont have to buy it. I'm sure he wont mind and that wont be me pounding on your door it will be that big lug Fields. Better yet go to a Justin Miller lecture and afterwords be sure to make a bunch of photocopies of the notes to pass out amongst your peers. Why not burn copies of your favorite movies to make a little side cash while your at it.

And really, it sounds to me like you're the one trying to justify your own stance by taking one complaint and making it a one-size-fits-all issue to create the impression of moral consistency.

I am stating my stance just as you are. I'm saying I wouldnt want someone to steal from me and I would want credit for what I produced. Therefore I choose to act accordingly and do what I feel is right.

If you choose not to than thats on your shoulders but I'm not going to compromise my core values just to save a few bucks.

I don't see the world in black and white. Never have.

I dont either by any means but I know the difference between what I feel is right and what I feel is wrong and I stand by those.

Hence, I refuse to get my rectum in a knot over people buying copies of magic books on eBay.

Why would you? It doesnt have any effect on you. Who cares about the guy who worked hard and put his time into something just to be hoodwinked buy some punk on youtube or some dude locked in his room burning copies so he can sell them on ebay for half price.

If I'm going to get good and pissed off, there are a lot of better things to spend that energy on.

I'm not pissed about it Steer and I'm ok if we dont completely agree on it. I'm just saying were I stand and I'm not going to take food off an artists plate. They dont deserve that.

If I'm going to get pissed off at something its those cop killers up in your city.**Honey, pass me that bottle of Tequila. I'm starting to get ornery again.**

 

[Flyspazz]

If you buy the product it's YOURS! Sell it, trade it there is absolutley nothing wrong with it. It is your property the creator sold it to the public its all part of business.

It's yours to use, not to resell or give away. And frankly I expected better out of you.

Give it up and lets get back to the magic.

I'm not going to give up a position that I believe in because its different than others just so you can be more comfortable and get back to the magic.

descardes
You are too quick to call buyers of second hand books thieves.

I call them like I see them.

Take a step back and relax for a moment before you pass judgement this way.

I'm not passing judgement. I'm just saying what I think but for some reason everyones got there panties in a wad over my position.

By your arguments, libraries should no longer exist because lots of people might just read a book once and never buy it. I'm sure there are many libraries that carry magic books. Are you going to accuse them of being thieves?

No. The books were purchased.

Therefore, if you have bought a magic book, you have essentially bought the right the perform the tricks in it.

I agree.

By selling it, you are reselling these rights

Thats what I'm saying. You dont have the right to resell the rights.

MagicUK
And from a producer's point of view you have to price your product with the assumption that one customer will not keep that product forever. Therefore the point that the producer makes no money on any subsequent sales is redundant because they made enough profit on that unit in the initial sale.

God. Who fed you this line of bull.

Mystifier1
I personally would never buy a used DVD.

At least one other person here stands on principle. For a minute there I thought it was just me and Jose Cuervo.