Who here actually does xcm as a performance art?

[visualartist]

I ask out of curiousity.
I ask in the general section as most of the general magicians here are card magicians and card manipulators.
The reason is because I hear alot of thunder about cardistry as a performance art. Yet as I searched the internet and forums for actual PERFORMANCES of it I see videos of people doing it in their room, music vide-esque performances but still only for cardists to watch online. I would generally ask where is the art in this performance art but i still wanna know where the performance is.
And very few people have the excuse of "sucking" at xcm. I see great handling skills on these crotch shot videos.
Why has no one put this to performance? It's not a performance art if you don't perform it or give it artistic value.

 

[Jewish_Illusion]

I do some xcm just for fun and to be able to push myself more and more
as i dont perform it per se as an art with intrinsic value i would assume that it is just a difficult thing to appreciate it unless youre up close and personal. if you want to donit as an entity by itself it would probably have to be done similar to a close up stage act, with a camera projecting it on a large screen.
just as a side note, it prob jus woouldnt do well by itslef

 

[visualartist]

I do some xcm just for fun and to be able to push myself more and more
as i dont perform it per se as an art with intrinsic value i would assume that it is just a difficult thing to appreciate it unless youre up close and personal. if you want to donit as an entity by itself it would probably have to be done similar to a close up stage act, with a camera projecting it on a large screen.
just as a side note, it prob jus woouldnt do well by itslef

I saw just ONE performance of XCM on stage my someone of handlordz and it did very well with no large screen tv.
A lot of people have said that before,that it has to be close up.
Not enough credit is given to card manipulation if that is the case.
Would you say then it isn't a performance art but merely a craft?
So far no one has proved it a performance art, it is simply a skill. Like the soccer skills from joga bonito.

 

[visualartist]

I do some xcm just for fun and to be able to push myself more and more

I hear that alot from the cardist crowd,but what do you guys mean by that? What about the challenge of it or difficulty of moving your fingers in a few places means pushing yourself?
I understand why people push themselves in A martial art because it involves learning techniques to promote spiritual insight and ethical behavior.
What does the "push" in cardistry do for you?

 

[eostresh]

I hate to cast style generalities but the stuff I have seen from the Devo inspired "Hand Lordz" side of the spectrum is stuff that I think could easily be added to a stage matipulation act. Lots of long spread catches and aerial stuff.I don't really know how many people add those type of flourishes to their manipulation act? I do somewhat doubt that you could entertain a lay audience based solely on XCM but I feel that those who do add some of that to classical manipulation acts would probably set themselves apart as a bit more "elite" than those who do classic manip without xcm.

As for the more close-up,multipacket cuts and card spins, stuff that may owe some of its roots to Tudor, I can say that I personally add cardistry to my magic. I do it where appropriate. I wouldn't step on something as truely "magical" as "Twilight Angels" with a bunch of fancy cuts, but it works very well for four card productions and the kind of pseudo gambling demonstrations, such as Josh Jay's "The Big Deal."

(anti flaming caveat- I realize that there is more than two distinct styles within XCM/Cardistry and that there is a lot of bleedover between and within different styles but as a general rule I think there is a distinct difference between this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszNGD79-rM and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22s6VeNhE5k )

 

[CaseyRudd]

I perform Cardistry a lot to my friends who have seen me handle cards but have never seen me handle cards in "that way" before. It's like I open them to a new world of how to handle playing cards. It's weird seeing their reactions to card flourishes because at first I always thought their reactions wouldn't be that great. I started performing my flourishes and their faces lit up like a child in a candy store. Especially when I do the flashy 2 handed cuts and the card spring. They get starry eyed on that one! You have to make sure when you perform your flourishes to people that you choose the ones that you know well. When you perform flourishes to laymen, it's like you're performing a magic trick (in my eyes). I want to make sure I nail it every time, that way I generate a pretty great reaction. I'll throw in a few risky flourishes every now and then, and that's when it REALLY gets fun. Cause once you nail it in front of them, you get excited and so do they! Not a lot of people try performing flourishes for laymen because they don't think they will appreciate it, but they will. They just have to freaking TRY IT! It's awesome.

 

[MichaelJames]

I find laymen are very interested in card flourishing. Typically people have seen a magic trick with cards; they've seen card sharks at the gambler's table; but they've never seen card flourishes or anything remotely like it! That being said, I can't remember anyone advocating cardistry as a 'performance art'. I don't perform to people very often because I tend to flourish for my personal entertainment rather than the entertainment of others. Some people find enjoyment in playing xbox or watching tv-I find enjoyment in playing with cards.

 

[Josh Burch]

I mixed some cardistry into a couple of my magic routines. I don't consider myself incredibly skilled. I think it has potential as a performance art. I bet if Ellen Degeneres got a hold of Andre Jikh, Dan and Dave or you Michael it seems like the kind of thing she'd have on the show. I think it has potential for sure.

 

[renome]

I also can't remember anyone advocating XCM as a performance art, although I do agree it has potential.
I know for a fact that De'Vo performs professionaly, and I also saw some videos of Tudor doing some XCM in between his effects for the spectators. I'm sure A. Jikh would have something to say on this subject, since I remember he talked about the best angles for audience on his Genesis 1 DVD (while explaining the thumb fan, and there was some talk during the Tetra tutorial), which leads me to believing that he has (at least) some experience in the area of performing.
As for my personal experience, every time I spot a heckler, I switch from magical to skillful presentation, producing cards from flourishes (Madison's 4 Sybil is one of my favorites) and that never fails to get a reaction. It's a pretty safe bet that people never saw a one-handed cut, shuffle, Sybil, aerials, etc., and the feeling they have when watching you is pretty much the same one from that time when they saw a guy juggling with 6 knives and 3 torches. XCM is hard but it often looks completely impossible and watching laymen reactions to it is pretty awesome. It's also a great bait for strangers to make them watch your magic.

 

[ReservoirRed]

I also do a bit of flourishing for personal enjoyment, rather like doing a jigsaw, no one I know does jigsaws so they can show people. There is such satisfaction in battling through the frustration to the point of bliss when it all comes together.

However, There is no point in you guys counter-debating the op's point by saying "no one ever said it was a performance art". Im not huge into cardistry and even I've heard the term performance art tossed about on the subject.
Thats the beauty of the game though, it's like magic, not everyone will want to see it, that doesn't mean the entire public couldn't give a damn about cardistry. I mean, ballet is a performance art, but there are those that dont want to watch it.

I know where you're coming from. And it interests me too. Is there anyone on the forum who, structures a routine of cardistry, like a choreographed dance routine more than a magic routine, and performs it with out the safety net of magic tricks. Performing a flourish to friends or inbetween tricks isn't the question, (at least not for me). I believe Andrei is infact a cardistry performer and for him it is certainly a performance art, he did a show at cirque du soleil at least once. Maybe he's one of the only routined cardist performers because he comes from the traditional XCM world.

 

[Jacob L]

I only do a few flourishes, and those are like during down time after I've done some magic and I'm talking with people. I'll just casually do a one handed cut and they'll go "woah do that again!" so I show them a few other things. I know Ekatrina had a public XCM performance once, although I couldn't find it again when I searched, but I think she was using Arcanes or something. There were people there watching and everything, it was a neat find.

 

[S.G]

Well, I don't necessarily think that performing card flourishes for your camera is any different from performing for people live. While in magic, you can relate to the spectator and have them participate, you can't really do that with card flourishes (I understand that there are exceptions). Flourishes look just as nice on camera as they do in real life.

None of the beauty is lost through camera and perhaps you could say it is actually enhanced.

 

[Steerpike]

You have to make sure when you perform your flourishes to people that you choose the ones that you know well.

Hold on... did you just say to only perform to people you know well? Please, please, please tell me I read that wrong.

Well, I don't necessarily think that performing card flourishes for your camera is any different from performing for people live.

How often do you perform for a live audience versus your webcam? I want to hear this.

 

[Andrei]

I've been wondering the same exact thing for years. I still haven't identified the problem as to why cardists don't perform as often as they tout around that this is a performance art.

I can only speak from personal experience and despite the lack of evidence, it is being done. I've performed with the Amazing Johnathan every day and still do on occasion. Granted, it's a small bit consisting of no more than 5 minutes. It's a small start but progress nonetheless.

I've always felt this art to be like a music soundtrack. A small song to be listened to as opposed to a whole concert. That's not to say it CAN'T be done, it certainly can but I have no desire to personally take it to that level. That kind of dedication is a life's full of work and I hope I see that in my own lifetime.

True, one can't execute a bunch of cuts for an hour and call it a show, but who says that's all it has to be? Much like any juggler, clown, or acrobat will do his act to music, the same can be applied. Is that all? Far from it! What about audience interaction? Comedy? All that and more is at one's disposal as an entertainer. Call a bunch of people up on stage and have them hold a large display you've made whilst you sit back and sip some water. Have the whole auditorium follow along with a deck of cards they've been provided for more interaction. Take pictures or record a video of them with you on stage as you attempt to teach them the basics. Photos/videos are given as a souvenir at the end of the bit. Involve gigantic glued collapsible displays that they can make and impress the audience with their "skill". Give them a mini deck if they're having a hard time for extra laughs. Involve 2 guys interlinking their arms as you play cheesy love music and shoot/manipulate cards through their arms. Do the "instant magician" trick but instead of doing magic, do cardistry! Open the act/show with a video similar to the one I made with Larry where he supposedly manipulates the cards (select someone before the show to stand there as you project it on a big screen and reveal it in a funny way). The possibilities are endless. Who says you can't have an hour show? Add pyrotechnics, dancers, anything else to make it random, it might work! Or it might fail but you will still get laughs as they may steal the show. It might be the element you're going for.

"But now it's not a cardistry show Andrei!" Really? Ask yourself how many successful entertainers stick to a one dimensional show. A magician has patter (storytelling) and even comedy to break it up! Is he a comedian? No, he's adding more dimensions to the show! I've had so many people condescendingly ask me how it's possible to entertain someone for more than 5 minutes doing "just card cuts and fans". Well there's your answer!

Don't listen to anyone on the forums dictate the way it has to be, including myself. You're all what you need to make it happen.

 

[visualartist]

to everyone who has said they haven't heard anyone say cardistry is an art or performance art, it happens alot. Those voices are just silenced now because I called them out on it.
And if people think you can't perform cardistry because it would get boring or wouldn't involve people, doesn't that mean your being uncreative? The performance is all on you.
Who says it has to be a one hour show? there's more possible ways of using cardistry as an art/performance art. Its just that cardists don't put forth any effort. They just like having the title around their waist without actually earning it.

 

[CaseyRudd]

Hold on... did you just say to only perform to people you know well? Please, please, please tell me I read that wrong.

Yes, Steer, you read that wrong. I said perform flourishes you know well to people (that means strangers, too). You don't want to perform a flourish or a magic effect you've been practicing for only a day to people, do you?

 

[Steerpike]

I've been wondering the same exact thing for years. I still haven't identified the problem as to why cardists don't perform as often as they tout around that this is a performance art.

Apply Occam's Razor and I think you'll get your answer: most of them just aren't interesting enough to hold a crowd no matter what they're doing. And more still have convinced themselves it can't be done, so they don't even bother.

Yes, Steer, you read that wrong. I said perform flourishes you know well to people (that means strangers, too). You don't want to perform a flourish or a magic effect you've been practicing for only a day to people, do you?

That is a slight relief, but the fact that the painfully obvious idea of, "Don't perform crap you haven't practiced yet, you rube!" needed to be repeated does reflect badly on the state of this discussion.

 

[eostresh]

Apply Occam's Razor and I think you'll get your answer: most of them just aren't interesting enough to hold a crowd no matter what they're doing.

That is a charge that I have found falls equally upon the shoulders of all specialties within the magical arts. Specifically I mean that I have seen probably the same percentage of good close-up magicians as bad, good stage magicians and bad, good mentalists as bad. Now I haven't seen a lot of people actually out there performing cardistry to live audiences so I really don't think it is fair to level that charge specifically in their direction until we see it start to happen.

 

[visualartist]

That is a charge that I have found falls equally upon the shoulders of all specialties within the magical arts. Specifically I mean that I have seen probably the same percentage of good close-up magicians as bad, good stage magicians and bad, good mentalists as bad. Now I haven't seen a lot of people actually out there performing cardistry to live audiences so I really don't think it is fair to level that charge specifically in their direction until we see it start to happen.

I think after finals i'll do some cardistry in front of the central library of my college, film it, and see what happens to spectator reaction.(the whole college practically walks through there) I won't say anything. I will simply see if spectators react to what i'm doing. If they are intrigued, interested, amazed,etc.
I might even interview people.
The sucky thing is, all the self proclaimed card artist( there is an entire 23 page long post with all their names) are not involving themselves in the discussion or even retorting. so my efforts to experiment with making cardistry into an actual performance will go ignored. Im sure they rather stick to performing in their living rooms and praising each other as card artists...*sigh*

 

[eostresh]

I think that is an excellent idea Visualartist. I honestly think you should get a pretty decent reaction. I mean, after all, people dress up like statues and stand still. If people tolerate that and still drop coins in the bucket, I have to assume that seeing someone actually doing something interesting should get a half decent response.

As for the comments about cardists not contributing to this thread...give them a bit of a break. Andrei commented, so did Micheal James. Both of these guys are pretty well known cardists. I don't expect Max Maven to pop up on my thread every time I start a topic on Mentalism. Count your blessings. For the most part you have gotten some well reasoned and insightful responses.