To Chris Kenner

[cardangel]

i absolutely love the one on one section and was wondering when and if you are going to have a video on the pass. well actually, more or less on the execution on the pass because i already have the pass down. its pretty fast and smooth, but i cant seem to make it invisible

thanks

 

[MitchellStafiej]

i absolutely love the one on one section and was wondering when and if you are going to have a video on the pass. well actually, more or less on the execution on the pass because i already have the pass down. its pretty fast and smooth, but i cant seem to make it invisible

thanks

The pass isn't a move meant to be fast, it is meant to be a utility move done under misdirection unless you are using it in a gambling routine. My pass is alright, it's not top notch, but I get away with it because I always use misdirection in magic.

Misdirection, a magician's best friend.

Mitchell

 

[cardangel]

oh yea i can get away with it through misdirection
but in a high school with like 20 people watching everytime you do something, ones bound to see it, which is why i was asking for the video.
my goal is to get my pass to be like brian tudors...im watching the dude and i can never see when he passes it. everytime...its amazing!

 

[Donny M]

The pass isn't a move meant to be fast, it is meant to be a utility move done under misdirection unless you are using it in a gambling routine. My pass is alright, it's not top notch, but I get away with it because I always use misdirection in magic.

Thanks Mitchell! I'm glad that a teenager without a top notch pass is here to tell us how the pass should and shouldn't be used! I'm sure people like S.W. Erdnase, Derek Dingle, Fred Robinson, Charlie Miller, Paul Chosse, and many others who all preach that developing speed is a critical factor in learning the pass, appreciate being told that they're wrong, despite their decades of hard work, and mastery of the move.

 

[Glenn West]

oh yea i can get away with it through misdirection
but in a high school with like 20 people watching everytime you do something, ones bound to see it, which is why i was asking for the video.
my goal is to get my pass to be like brian tudors...im watching the dude and i can never see when he passes it. everytime...its amazing!

Actually, I found that high school was the best place to work on misdirection and timing.

In fact I spent a good deal of my performance time in high school doing magic with ONLY misdirection.

I am not saying you should do the things I am about to describe, but i did.

I would palm a card with half of it sticking out of my hand, and still no one would notice. I watched peoples eyes.

You'd be surprised how often EVERYONE is not looking at the same time. THIS is when you do the pass. This is STILL when i do my pass.

Eventually, by watching people enough and seeing when these moments occur you will learn what it was that prompted them and be able to reproduce them as well as anticipate them.

Even when you have just one person and they are burning your hands, these moments will still happen.

I had one of my profs the other day ask me to show him a trick and he was burning my hands and I did a classic pass. He didn't see a thing and I didn't even have to use my own misdirection as he did it for me.

 

[Matt LaBonte]

Thanks Mitchell! I'm glad that a teenager without a top notch pass is here to tell us how the pass should and shouldn't be used! I'm sure people like S.W. Erdnase, Derek Dingle, Fred Robinson, Charlie Miller, Paul Chosse, and many others who all preach that developing speed is a critical factor in learning the pass, appreciate being told that they're wrong, despite their decades of hard work, and mastery of the move.

Hey man, why don't you give him a bit of slack. Mitchell is totally correct. You don't need the pass to be super fast and invisible if you have the proper misdirection skills. Of course if they are burning your hands you better do it invisibly, but seriously, speed isn't everything when it comes to the pass. I am also pretty sure in no way did he try to offend any of those magicians when writing his post.

 

[Donny M]

Hey man, why don't you give him a bit of slack. Mitchell is totally correct. You don't need the pass to be super fast and invisible if you have the proper misdirection skills. Of course if they are burning your hands you better do it invisibly, but seriously, speed isn't everything when it comes to the pass. I am also pretty sure in no way did he try to offend any of those magicians when writing his post.

I agree with what you said Matt. "You don't need the pass to be super fast and invisible if you have the proper misdirection skills".

That's not what the other guy said. He said, flat out, without exception, that "The pass isn't a move meant to be fast, it is meant to be a utility move done under misdirection unless you are using it in a gambling routine."

If he'd said, "The pass does not have to be fast to be deceptive", then that's a different story.

He made no exceptions, and basically told everyone who thinks that speed is important to the pass, or who does not misdirect, that they're not using it the way it was intended. Then, he goes on to admit that he does not have a "top notch pass". Don't you think you should have a pretty damn solid grasp of a move before you advise others how it should be done?

 

[MitchellStafiej]

I agree with what you said Matt. "You don't need the pass to be super fast and invisible if you have the proper misdirection skills".

That's not what the other guy said. He said, flat out, without exception, that "The pass isn't a move meant to be fast, it is meant to be a utility move done under misdirection unless you are using it in a gambling routine."

If he'd said, "The pass does not have to be fast to be deceptive", then that's a different story.

He made no exceptions, and basically told everyone who thinks that speed is important to the pass, or who does not misdirect, that they're not using it the way it was intended. Then, he goes on to admit that he does not have a "top notch pass". Don't you think you should have a pretty damn solid grasp of a move before you advise others how it should be done?

I gave my opinion, I personally do not believe that the pass should be a move to dwell on until utter perfection. That's my opinion, and I stand by it, but if you are doing a routine that involves your spectators completely burning your hands until they catch fire, then sure, get it down perfect.

Mitchell

 

[Cody Fisher]

I gave my opinion, I personally do not believe that the pass should be a move to dwell on until utter perfection. That's my opinion, and I stand by it, but if you are doing a routine that involves your spectators completely burning your hands until they catch fire, then sure, get it down perfect.

Mitchell

Shouldn't any move be practiced until perfection? And of course by perfection I mean the point where it is totally indetectable, whether being burned or not. Despite the fact that misdirection is there to aid you, that does not at all mean that the actions involved should be any less practiced.

Cody

 

[MitchellStafiej]

Shouldn't any move be practiced until perfection? And of course by perfection I mean the point where it is totally indetectable, whether being burned or not. Despite the fact that misdirection is there to aid you, that does not at all mean that the actions involved should be any less practiced.

Cody

But what if someone spends years and years practicing this ONE move but doesn't get it to that point where it's invisible... shouldn't they move on to better their magic? Rather than simply try and perfect that ONE move which can be achieved with simple misdirection?

Mitchell

 

[Aaron Shields]

There's a difference between doing a pass invisibly and doing it fast.

The idea of doing a pass quickly and invisibly started back with Krenzel and then Dingle. I've watched Bob White do the pass; I mention him because Miller's name was brought up and Bob was a vas a very close friend and confidant of Charlie Miller. Bob's pass isn't invisible, but it is fast. The purpose of a fast pass is so that the audience's attention doesn't have to linger from the deck for too long.

Almost anyone (aside from maybe 3 or 4 people at most) who claim an invisible pass don't have one. It's better to work on doing it quickly and not telegraphing it than it is trying to get it completely invisible. Having said that Kenner does do the best classic pass without a covering action that I've seen. Chris also has a lot of valuable insight on how to manage the move and what the hands should be doing.

 

[Donny M]

There's a difference between doing a pass invisibly and doing it fast.
The idea of doing a pass quickly and invisibly started back with Krenzel and then Dingle.

I don't understand why there is a difference between doing a pass invisibly, and doing it fast.

Can an "invisible" pass not be fast? And by Invisible, do you mean you cannot see the two halves transpose? Or do you mean that there is absolutely nothing to indicate that anything happened?

Obviously the latter is preferable, but much more difficult.

By the way, the idea of speed being important, or at the very least helpful, is apparent even in Erdnase.

He says at least twice, that with a better understanding and more practice of the move, the packets can "be reversed like a flash", which to me, indicates speed.

The fact remains, that the pass was never "not meant to be fast".

 

[-Ty]

I think there is a a touch of confusion.

It is very possible to make a fast pass invisible. But to have a fast pass is not to have it invisible.

To have an invisble pass (preferable over a fast one, I think we can all agree) you need smoothness, balance, timing, fluidity and in my opinion, misdirection. Through good misdirection, a pass can become a mere gesture with the pack, or the setting it down on a table. These actions are not suspicious, not unnatural, and the pass then becomes nothing. Like every sleight shoould be.

But back to the topic at hand! I would also like to see Chris's views on the pass also, more-so on the sleight than on the mechanics (if you get my drift).

Ty

 

[Aaron Shields]

I'll repeat: "The purpose of a fast pass is so that the audience's attention doesn't have to linger from the deck for too long."

There's nothing wrong with a pass being fast; but, some of the fastest passes (many of which are by people claiming invisible passes) I've seen are the most detectable. The body telegraphs the whole action.

Fast and natural should be the primary goal.

 

[Matt LaBonte]

I agree with what you said Matt. "You don't need the pass to be super fast and invisible if you have the proper misdirection skills".

That's not what the other guy said. He said, flat out, without exception, that "The pass isn't a move meant to be fast, it is meant to be a utility move done under misdirection unless you are using it in a gambling routine."

If he'd said, "The pass does not have to be fast to be deceptive", then that's a different story.

He made no exceptions, and basically told everyone who thinks that speed is important to the pass, or who does not misdirect, that they're not using it the way it was intended. Then, he goes on to admit that he does not have a "top notch pass". Don't you think you should have a pretty damn solid grasp of a move before you advise others how it should be done?

Ah, then I apologize for over reacting per se. I totally agree with you. Now that I look at two views and what two people think then this makes much more sense to me. Thanks man and sorry for the thinking-of-misinformation type of thingy

Thanks again!

 

[Donny M]

I'll repeat: "The purpose of a fast pass is so that the audience's attention doesn't have to linger from the deck for too long."

There's nothing wrong with a pass being fast; but, some of the fastest passes (many of which are by people claiming invisible passes) I've seen are the most detectable. The body telegraphs the whole action.

Fast and natural should be the primary goal.

There you go.

Thread over.

 

[cardangel]

whoa dudes
everyones goin way overboard with this thread
i originally posted as a message to chris kenner requesting a pass 1 on 1 video, now its become a debate about the execution of the pass haha

although i do like everyones tips