theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards

Cardistry is diseased.

trashmanf said:
probably the best way to "solve" it is to get some thicker skin. You can't change the way other people think, but you can change yourself. If you're seriously not posting videos because you're afraid someone is going to say one of richard's 5 comments... get over it! there's always going to be some jerk out there, the best you can do is just ignore them and/or not take them too seriously, I mean come on sticks and stones right? most of the comments aren't like that. no need to focus on the few that are.
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Get thicker skin? I have an idea! Why don't the people who say those sorts of comments just make more helpful comments?

When I comment a video, I will have an area in my comment where I make broad recommendations (such as I may recommend using less two-handed cuts, etc etc, but I also state specifically that it is just my opinion, and it is up to the person themself), but that is only a part of my comment, the other part is me making constructive comments on what WAS in the video. Helping them out with what they did do or want to do, etc.

UnholyGodn said:
I think the easiest solution for that is a collaborative article that takes the sticky Vinnie started and expands it greatly. Covering all the things like Jerry's (Which stems a few thousand threads a day), where to get cards cheap, where to get 'rare' cards, where people can find help for certain moves, tips and advice on first starting out (remember when clipping cards felt so weird?), perhaps even some history of Cardistry (Where did it start? Who are the memorable contributors? I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people here didn't know what CheatersCheater was), maybe even provide links to some of the good reviews available for the products mentioned in the current sticky. There are so many threads on most of these topics, it's impossible to search for what you need, if it were laid out nice and simply I think it would go a long way to reducing the grind felt my the experienced members in having to face a thousand basic questions and hopefully loosen them up (In the nicest possible way) so perhaps discussion, such as this could evolve.
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Working on it. :D

-Vince
 
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Bryan, I do not consider the "'exclusive elite' I metntioned to be that actual 'elite' members of the community. It is more the vibe given by those that do flourishing as a way to show how much better they are than someone else because they have discovered some rare new hobby/art. I have actually found that most of the more experianced members of the community are rather helpful, either being active participants or chosing to stay out of it. I find the problem lies mostly in my generation (maybe a bit beyond, I'm still rather new) that think just because they are no longer at Xtreme Beginners level that they are the way and light of flourishing. It is this attitude I hope we can control as it rubs off on new members and either turns them away or turns them into the same unfriendly type. For ages there was the XCM vs Cardistry vs Flourishing war, which still goes on today, but beyond that among each sector there are furthur select groups and the whole thing is just very closed. I'm not quite sure if we can fix it, or how we'd do it, but as Cardistry is new I have faith that we can save it before it gets derailed such as we have seen with Magic. I know this probably sounds like hippy optimistic crap, but if we don't try we'll never have an actual community.
 
Hear hear!

And its only natural to ask questions, when you take up something new you want to make sure that you know as much as you can so that u dont start off on the wrong path.

Strangely enough, ive yet to see someone good insult new people. Im not sayng that the people who do are all bad, just that the best people know how much work it was for them, and that at one point they themselves couldnt do charliers properly.

To all you new people, work at flourishing, work hard, practice practice practice, and blow our socks off with an Awesome video! :D
 
In the good old days you could go to a magic club and people would share their experiance for free, or lend you their books and give you advice, now the internet has made magic into a "I'll help you, but I'll make it a DVD first and sell you it".

Thats beacuse magic is being transformed like everything else for money money money greed greed greed, back then people used to play sports for the love of the game now its all about the money money money and if you dont think exposure is a big deal let me show you somthing....look over there, thats criss angel, he wished to have a H3 hummer with a surround sound system with a swimming pool in the back, but thanks to people exposing his tricks for free, he'll have to wait a few weeks until he can afford it. Still think exposing tricks for free isnt a big deal!? And over here is Dan and Dave, they wanted to have thier own private island off the coast of puerto rico, but beacuse of floruish exposure, they might not get thier tropical paradise. Still think sharing floursihes and tricks for free isnt a big deal!!?? I hope we have all learned somthing about the dangers and how damaging exposure can really be.
 
what the hell kind of tangent was that Royal? huh!? in your first paragraph you yearn for the days of friendly exposure, and in your second epic paragraph you blast the idea. my head is spinning.

I think of exposure as a kind of darwinism of magic. if you will - most exposure isn't blatanly out in the open for everyone to see (okay, there's youtube and other sites)

the REAL dangerous exposure is via file sharing sites, where you can download ripped copies of DVDs and magic books.

the percentage of magicians that will get stuff this way is few. however, the MINDSET of these magicians is markedly different from the average (ethical) buyer. They are taking an unconventional route to achieve their goals... it's a more cunning method of discovering the knowledge.

these same thinkers could probably (just my guess) be applying that kind of innovative thinking to their magic! so, it may be that getting all this material out to these unethical yet cunning magicians, is actually a good thing for the future of magic, SHOULD these magicians apply the same unconventional thinking to their methods of performances.
 
trashmanf said:
the percentage of magicians that will get stuff this way is few. however, the MINDSET of these magicians is markedly different from the average (ethical) buyer. They are taking an unconventional route to achieve their goals... it's a more cunning method of discovering the knowledge.

these same thinkers could probably (just my guess) be applying that kind of innovative thinking to their magic! so, it may be that getting all this material out to these unethical yet cunning magicians, is actually a good thing for the future of magic, SHOULD these magicians apply the same unconventional thinking to their methods of performances.
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Allow me to say that this "unconvential route" is hardly cunning, and certainly not worthy of any praise. They're taking the easy way out, being lazy about the art. I do not see many of these sorts of people demonstrating much cunning at all. The whole affair is terrible.

Take it from someone who knows, I did it once, a long time ago, and I know how crappy it is.

-Vince
 
oh okay disregard pretty much everything i said sorry bout that... :)

and vinnie, you're right as usual, but what about kids that can't possibly afford the tons of magic stuff out there but really want to learn it? knowledge is power ! I think of it as an involuntary investment (the pirate tax) which published artists just have to make? might as well think of a bright side to the issue is all i'm saying.
 
commenting on the topic createors first post

now i dont do flourishes that much... i know a few basic easy ones, as i dont have the patience to practise for weeks on end

but i agree with the part that the online community is so amazingly anal about leaking information of any kind

"hi im new, i just got the ____ trick, im having trouble with one part, what exactly do i do?"

well timmy, at that part, you need to do a double lift


UH OH, HE SAID DOUBLE LIFT, DELETE POST WARN USER!

i noticed it at E (dont get me wrong, in time itll happen here too) that because of this constant fight on exposure even in its slightest forms, the topics are just reguritated, same topics over and over again, from people seeking help but never finding it
 
The exposure on sites is extremely sensitive. Because tipping just the right details will ultimately lead to the exposure, so instead of avalanching best for all members to be aware of the circumstances. Ever watch a video and try to figure out how the trick works and stuff, admit it. We ALL do it, it's natural for us to be interested in method. Well that kind of solving the problem of "how is this accomplished" can be accomplished by watching video of it and peeking at the details of the effects posted on forums.

Now as for the community. I feel this is something with instant gratification for any new skill or hobby. People want stuff that they can take and get gratification for little time invested. Great example is magic. Everyone wants to know the tricks, what are the best tricks to perform. Yet they skip the basics of presentation and storytelling and misdirection cause they want to know the trick that gets the reaction and don't care for learning the important stuff that really makes you successful. Drawing a parallel to this manipulation community the gratification comes from two things, real world reaction OR input from fellow peers. To me it's the input from peers, cause again it's hard to perform this stuff in real world settings and deal with dropping and deal with people. Performing in front of a camera and showing off to all your buddies on the forums hoping people will praise you for it is pretty easy especially since you have to power of editing and the power of showing the success and not the 100 failures. All of us do that BUT in real life performing you don't have takes, you have one chance and one chance only otherwise when you drop or fumble the laymen just start walking away. This is the instant gratification. I see a lot of people get so excited when they learn or create some new "thang" and post it up immediately not seeking criticism but looking for praise. I remember messing up on easy openers and dropping armspreads and missing catches and had people stop watching this was JUST my manipulation. It's discouraging to mess up in real life cause in magic you can always do something to fake the laymen into thinking you didn't mess up but in manipulation a screw up IS A SCREW UP.

Improvement should always be the top priority. No routine ever goes perfect not on video or in performances! There's always something that can be done to improve it. Keep practicing even if it seems as if you are getting no where.
 
I solve that problem by just performing in real life. Laymen are far more impressed by simple things than fellow Cardists are. That isn't to say I don't strive to improve, I enjoy flourishing because I love that feeling when I can first nail a move smoothly (Just recently with Pandora) it's just great fun. My friends actually joke a lot because I can perform Mary Jane and all these complicated cuts, but I usually drop my cards when I'm just holding the deck and walking. I don't like flourishing for my friends because they are more impressed, or because I can't take criticism, but because they enjoy it far more than anyone would if I made a video and stuck it online.

Sure I screw up in real life, but it forces you to improve more so that you don't screw up, this has helped me improve so much. I don't classify knowing a cut if I can't do it while I'm walking around, which isn't exactly safe most of the time, but it's when you can do the moves in non ideal conditions, that you learn to adapt for wind and other things that gets you even better at such moves. I don't 'grind' cardistry as others do, forcing themselves to repeat moves everyday like its some kind of training schedule just to get the the heralded Buck Speed. The constant wars between factions, and the unrealistic expectations for everyone to produce a video like Virtuoso really sucks the enjoyment out of the community.

I don't know if we can change the community, I really think we'd need to start again a fresh and build something unique directing peoples focus from the start rather than trying to force them to do things. There are always people that will want to be the best, and I don't want to change them, that's what they enjoy, I just wish there was somewhere that people could get together and discuss and enjoy flourishing rather than competing. I sound totally communist don't I? :P
 
Oh, I agree so with you! I'm into college (university) now and don't have much time to practise, so when I hear oh you can't do that already and you can't do that.. I get sick of it, people should ask the things you CAN do and help you with that instead of the things you can't do. In the cardistry world there are some people that want to be the best and laugh about others and are just selfish.

Cardistry is just my hobby as with a little bit of card collecting and I'm fine with that.
 
trashmanf the second paragraph is all sarcasm, im basically saying just beacause you expose a few tricks doesent mean its going to effect criss angel or these other magicans cuz thier still super rich any way
 
ugh speaking of, did any of you guys watch "phenomenon" last night, Cris Angel had a TOTALLY scripted 'fight' with one of the paranormal performers. it was so embarrassing for magic on TV in general. however Angela Funovitz was on and did a great performance so kudos to Cris for at least recognizing the talent there. doesnt hurt that shes a total knockout.

unholy I think my (and perhaps others'?) problem is that we don't necessarily grasp the concept of embracing mediocracy. it is totally okay that if you don't want to get REALLY good at a flourish, you don't have to! but a lot of us or at least myself are so craving of perfection that we assume other n00bs are as well and so we try to say "YOU NEED TO MAKE UR FAN PERFECT!!!" or some other such criticism that is really pointless if the flourisher in question doesn't care that much.

so thanks to your post I will STOP projecting my personal opinion of the level of quality one should strive for in cardistry. if anyone asks "how can I get better/what do I need to improve" then you can bet I will be there for them and be their harshest critic. I have been contacted by members of t11 via private message actually because I've got a reputation for this, and those who really strive for excellence know that I won't sugar coat a review.

from now on, if someone posts a video and says "look at me im awesome i made a video of the leno cut" i will rather say, way to go dude, you did a slow DnD cut just as good as the hundred other videos of this out there ;) if that's all you want from flourishing, congradulations you just accomplished your goals!
 
by the way trash, you dropped a card in your video why would you even put that up? by the way good job at doing a slow one handed fan youve reached your goal congrats.
 
I'm a long long long long long long way from reaching my goal in cardistry buddy ;) but good effort regardless... I give your comeback a 2/5 , keep practicing.

edit: oh yeah if you were seriously asking why i dropped the card... its because im a n00b and i SUX!!! duh!!! :D
 
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