So I just bought some Rider Back and I was about to open when I realised that mine were black seal. I went to check another deck of Rider Back which I bought a few months ago and they were Gold Seal. I read online about the Gold and Blue seal but there were very little to no information about the Black Seal. What does it mean and what is its history?
Bicycle Rider Back. Blue Seal? Gold Seal? Black Seal?
- Thread starter Jun.Hwang
- Start date
Black seal would usually mean, more than likely, that the deck was printed in USPCC's Erlanger factory, rather than the defunct Cincinnati factory.
If you have a deck that has a black seal but says it was made in the Cincinnati factory, it wasn't. During the transition in 2009-2010 they would've produced the deck in the Erlanger factory and just placed it in a Cincinnati box. The best way to tell them apart, imo, is to use Lee Asher's AoS dating guide.
http://www.leeasher.com/playground/articles/how_to_date_a_deck_of_cards.html
The coded letter will correspond the year it was manufactured. Since most Erlanger decks were 2009-10 onwards, any deck with a black seal and M or later code on AoS was most likely produced in Erlanger.
I realise I went bit of topic, slightly, but ya know...knowledge lol
If you have a deck that has a black seal but says it was made in the Cincinnati factory, it wasn't. During the transition in 2009-2010 they would've produced the deck in the Erlanger factory and just placed it in a Cincinnati box. The best way to tell them apart, imo, is to use Lee Asher's AoS dating guide.
http://www.leeasher.com/playground/articles/how_to_date_a_deck_of_cards.html
The coded letter will correspond the year it was manufactured. Since most Erlanger decks were 2009-10 onwards, any deck with a black seal and M or later code on AoS was most likely produced in Erlanger.
I realise I went bit of topic, slightly, but ya know...knowledge lol
As far as I can tell, this isn't necessarily true. From Chris Severson:
If you find 2009 cards with “Made in Cincinnati” on the side of the box with a Black Seal, it might be a ‘Transformer deck’ (Blue Seal in disguise!) or they could be complete garbage. They took the extra boxes from the old factory and put Kentucky cards in them to save on box costs — kind of a crapshoot, if you don’t know what to look for.
The only definitive way to tell is by comparing them to a blue sealed deck.
There's so much hype around blue seals, but in reality, most readily available custom decks feel the same. A Bicycle deck from a local store probably won't handle as well, though they're nice for sure.
Fun fact: Red seals mean the deck was from/used in/made for a casino.
Echoing what has been said - In general (there are exceptions, but this usually holds true):
Blue Seals were what was used before USPC moved across the river from Cincinnati to Erlanger. These are from the old factory and were printed on the old machines.
Black Seals are what was used after the move. Printed in the new (current) factory on new machines.
There is likely a period in the middle where seals / tucks / decks were likely mismatched. If you had thousands of old "Ohio" tucks left over when you made the move to Kentucky, would you throw them all away? Na, you would use them. You would simply change the city name the next time you printed tucks. No reason to waste them. They may have started black seals before the move because they ran out of blue seals before that time, I wasn't there so can't tell you exactly how things went down.
There WAS a point in time during the transition period where there were some major quality issues on the new machines. Some people knew USPC moved, and the first deck they opened that said Kentucky had some problems. Instant bad reaction to everything NEW. This, topped off with USPC's decision to release the "Standard" Bicycle decks which most magicians dislike due to the tuck design, meant that there was a lot of hate towards the "NEW" USPC. This lead to people hunting for the elusive "Blue Seals" because "black seals are crap."
While there may have been quality issues during the transition period at USPC, those are LONG in the past. The transition happened... wait for it... over SEVEN years ago now. 2009 I believe. While there may have been a few months of issues, we have since had seven years of high quality decks coming out of USPC. And, to top it off. even though most places sell the "Standard" bikes, USPC still makes the "Classic" bikes that we all like.
There ARE a few small differences between old Blue seal decks and new Black seal decks, but those differences are small. The machines used to print, finish, and cut the cards are different. Some people who have LOTS of experience handling cards will say that they prefer the cut or feel of the old decks. Personal preference.
Most Gold Seal decks I have seen were part of Richard Turner's custom run. He had Bikes made using an alternate cutting method that helps make certain types of shuffling significantly easier. I believe that they used what was at that time a different stock than regular bikes. These you don't usually find out in the wild unless at a magic shop - they are tuned to very specific requirements that nobody but a card worker would ever care about.
I hope this helps!
// L
Blue Seals were what was used before USPC moved across the river from Cincinnati to Erlanger. These are from the old factory and were printed on the old machines.
Black Seals are what was used after the move. Printed in the new (current) factory on new machines.
There is likely a period in the middle where seals / tucks / decks were likely mismatched. If you had thousands of old "Ohio" tucks left over when you made the move to Kentucky, would you throw them all away? Na, you would use them. You would simply change the city name the next time you printed tucks. No reason to waste them. They may have started black seals before the move because they ran out of blue seals before that time, I wasn't there so can't tell you exactly how things went down.
There WAS a point in time during the transition period where there were some major quality issues on the new machines. Some people knew USPC moved, and the first deck they opened that said Kentucky had some problems. Instant bad reaction to everything NEW. This, topped off with USPC's decision to release the "Standard" Bicycle decks which most magicians dislike due to the tuck design, meant that there was a lot of hate towards the "NEW" USPC. This lead to people hunting for the elusive "Blue Seals" because "black seals are crap."
While there may have been quality issues during the transition period at USPC, those are LONG in the past. The transition happened... wait for it... over SEVEN years ago now. 2009 I believe. While there may have been a few months of issues, we have since had seven years of high quality decks coming out of USPC. And, to top it off. even though most places sell the "Standard" bikes, USPC still makes the "Classic" bikes that we all like.
There ARE a few small differences between old Blue seal decks and new Black seal decks, but those differences are small. The machines used to print, finish, and cut the cards are different. Some people who have LOTS of experience handling cards will say that they prefer the cut or feel of the old decks. Personal preference.
Most Gold Seal decks I have seen were part of Richard Turner's custom run. He had Bikes made using an alternate cutting method that helps make certain types of shuffling significantly easier. I believe that they used what was at that time a different stock than regular bikes. These you don't usually find out in the wild unless at a magic shop - they are tuned to very specific requirements that nobody but a card worker would ever care about.
I hope this helps!
// L
Thank you all for the response and it was really heartening to know there's so much history to it! I have tried the Black Seal and the Gold Seal, apparently the Gold Seal seems to handle better (probably placebo but I don't know...it is all in the mind, aye). But for tricks whereby I need a double card, I would use the one from the black seal deck.
Hey, I have a little question. I'd been searching for an answer and saw your comment about red seals being made for a casino.
I bought a Black Ohio-Made deck of Rider Backs with the intention of using them. I've held off because they have a red seal. I most certainly don't want to open them if they're rarer than a normal Blue Seal deck. I can't seem to find an answer anywhere, other than your comment here. I know some custom decks will have a red seal because they paid for it, but I'd love to know more about what I'm holding on to. Thanks!
Some pre-Kentucky decks have Red seals. I don't believe the above statement that Red seals were reserved for Casinos. MOST Ohio decks used Blue seals, but the Red vesion crops up now and then. One of the decks you see this on is the Black Rider Back. Mine are red seal. If you search Google Images for Black Rider Back you will see lots of red seal Black Riderbacks. Doesn't seem to be anything beyond a seal variation. Just a normal deck.
// L
Thanks for the reply. That's good to know, mostly because I really want to open these lol.
Obviously speculation here, but you got me thinking:
Today, USPCC says Black decks can only be purchased through the "department store" four packs they sell at target, Walmart etc. I wonder if the red seal on Black decks was a way USPCC "segregated" the Black decks? Interesting. Thanks again. I'm going to crack these open and see what I've got. I just opened a Blue Seal Red-backed deck and was greeted with a printing year of 1996!
Obviously speculation here, but you got me thinking:
Today, USPCC says Black decks can only be purchased through the "department store" four packs they sell at target, Walmart etc. I wonder if the red seal on Black decks was a way USPCC "segregated" the Black decks? Interesting. Thanks again. I'm going to crack these open and see what I've got. I just opened a Blue Seal Red-backed deck and was greeted with a printing year of 1996!