Yes, thats true. Because of that, I don't think that one should limit himself to books. But, my point was that books have material of great masters of magic, and that is not availale on DVDs, besides a couple of exeptions, like Vernon Revelations.
Why Books?
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Yes, thats true. Because of that, I don't think that one should limit himself to books. But, my point was that books have material of great masters of magic, and that is not availale on DVDs, besides a couple of exeptions, like Vernon Revelations.
Pure curiosity here: do musicians have this same debate? Like, when you're learning to play piano, is there a long-standing issue about whether it's easier to learn from a book or a video? What about painters, or sculptors? Actors?
If someone knows, point it out, please. But I'm going to assume that the debate isn't as heavy in those fields (again, up for correction). And I'd like to ask, Why? Is it the nature of our medium? Is it because magic's just different? Is it because of the current generation of magicians?
Would magicians 40 or 50 years ago have this same debate, if the issue were present at the time? Or is it a recent thing?
It just seems like such a bizarre issue - is it better to learn from print or from a movie. Personally, I say that it's better to learn from a good teacher, regardless of format. That a good trick is good because of what it is, not where it's shown.
There's many good reasons why you would support one or the other, but ultimately, doesn't it come down to, "I want to learn THIS trick, and it's on DVD, so I'm going to learn it from a DVD?" Or, rarer still these days, "I can learn this from a book or a DVD. I'll pick whichever has more material to cover. If they both have the same info, then I'll pick whichever I feel will teach me this particular trick better."
You could say that certain tricks are taught better in certain mediums. Danny Garcia has a 3-phase rubber band routine in his Next lecture notes, and it took me a good long while to figure out what in the world he was trying to tell me to do. It just didn't translate well to print for me - the sleights were hard to describe and best shown visually. But then, take something like Paul Harris' Art of Astonishment series - pick every trick out of that, every one, and every essay and interview, and put it on a DVD series. It would probably be pretty expensive and a bit harder to scan through to find the effect you want.
I think that a lot of points brought up about the issue are brought up on the wrong reasons. It seems to be a case of, black and white, Books or DVDs?, when instead it should be, This trick: Book or DVD? This concept: Book or DVD?
You normally find a lot more material in books for the same price as a DVD. Older material can only be found in books. You can carry a book around and read it wherever you like.
DVDs actually show you what you need to do. You get to see angles from a spectator's point of view. You get to see the performance in action. It can sometimes help if a trick was explained poorly.
You can also just learn from both as is more helpful for what you want to achieve.
If someone knows, point it out, please. But I'm going to assume that the debate isn't as heavy in those fields (again, up for correction). And I'd like to ask, Why? Is it the nature of our medium? Is it because magic's just different? Is it because of the current generation of magicians?
Would magicians 40 or 50 years ago have this same debate, if the issue were present at the time? Or is it a recent thing?
It just seems like such a bizarre issue - is it better to learn from print or from a movie. Personally, I say that it's better to learn from a good teacher, regardless of format. That a good trick is good because of what it is, not where it's shown.
There's many good reasons why you would support one or the other, but ultimately, doesn't it come down to, "I want to learn THIS trick, and it's on DVD, so I'm going to learn it from a DVD?" Or, rarer still these days, "I can learn this from a book or a DVD. I'll pick whichever has more material to cover. If they both have the same info, then I'll pick whichever I feel will teach me this particular trick better."
You could say that certain tricks are taught better in certain mediums. Danny Garcia has a 3-phase rubber band routine in his Next lecture notes, and it took me a good long while to figure out what in the world he was trying to tell me to do. It just didn't translate well to print for me - the sleights were hard to describe and best shown visually. But then, take something like Paul Harris' Art of Astonishment series - pick every trick out of that, every one, and every essay and interview, and put it on a DVD series. It would probably be pretty expensive and a bit harder to scan through to find the effect you want.
I think that a lot of points brought up about the issue are brought up on the wrong reasons. It seems to be a case of, black and white, Books or DVDs?, when instead it should be, This trick: Book or DVD? This concept: Book or DVD?
You normally find a lot more material in books for the same price as a DVD. Older material can only be found in books. You can carry a book around and read it wherever you like.
DVDs actually show you what you need to do. You get to see angles from a spectator's point of view. You get to see the performance in action. It can sometimes help if a trick was explained poorly.
You can also just learn from both as is more helpful for what you want to achieve.
I don't think it's really about the tricks though, more the concepts and lessons - and my point is simply that many of these are not to be found in DVDs. If someone made a DVD copy of every single Vernon book in DVD format, taught by him and containing all the concepts in the books, by all means, I'd say that go ahead, learn from a DVD. But this for obvious logistical reasons is not possible.
I'd add for your questions about musicians, painters, sculptors and actors, that magic is a different art (if an art at all, which I won't debate here) to those. You simply can't learn piano from a DVD, you can't learn music, you have to read the music, there's no other way. You have to read the music first before memorising it. Painters and sculptors, without personal experience, I would say depend much more on personality and style for their expression in their respective art forms; this is not something that can be taught from a DVD.
As far as acting goes, from personal experience, DVDs can certainly teach you things. But to some extent I think acting is a natural gift; it can be cultivated, certainly, and prodded and prompted, but only so far. To be honest, the limited types of teaching that an actor can undergo must be done in person, simply due to the expressive nature of acting. Then again, we can read about acting styles, but we don't really learn from books, either. We might research something to inform ourselves, but that's about it.
But no, I don't believe that they debate about these things.
LOL.
I'd add for your questions about musicians, painters, sculptors and actors, that magic is a different art (if an art at all, which I won't debate here) to those. You simply can't learn piano from a DVD, you can't learn music, you have to read the music, there's no other way. You have to read the music first before memorising it. Painters and sculptors, without personal experience, I would say depend much more on personality and style for their expression in their respective art forms; this is not something that can be taught from a DVD.
As far as acting goes, from personal experience, DVDs can certainly teach you things. But to some extent I think acting is a natural gift; it can be cultivated, certainly, and prodded and prompted, but only so far. To be honest, the limited types of teaching that an actor can undergo must be done in person, simply due to the expressive nature of acting. Then again, we can read about acting styles, but we don't really learn from books, either. We might research something to inform ourselves, but that's about it.
But no, I don't believe that they debate about these things.
LOL.
Scuplture and art are extremely dependent upon personality, yes - all art is. It's what separates a hack from a pro. Your approach, your natural talent, your theory on the practice. And you can't learn your own opinion from a DVD, not in full. But you can learn others' opinions, and you mix that with what you know, and from there your artistic self emerges. We see this most commonly in who influences us and how we mimic them.
We can stick "trick" under "concepts and lessons", and it's still about the individual item rather than the category as a whole. Simply put, not everything is learned the same way. You won't find a DVD which teaches you three solid hours of hardcore prestidigitation theory, but you may hear someone say something that makes you rethink your performance, which leads to you rethinking your style, which leads to you rethinking your artistic self as described above.
Is it that when people write books, they have more room and more freedom to discuss the finer points of things? It's their personal item. Whereas, with a DVD, we as magicians have certain expectations - we want performances, we want a reveal, and maybe a few subtleties if you got 'em. I'm just saying that I can't see how talking instead of writing keeps you from achieving this, I don't think it's an inseparable part of the medium. I think it's the community's response to the medium and a growing tendency to wait for the next biggest release instead of CARE about what we could be learning,
Books allow you to interpret the effect from your own personal views. Instead of using the exact subtleties that someone uses in a DVD you have to come up with your own view as to how the author of a book went about the effect.
I'm a firm believer in technology and the advances with video's is great but there is still that great nostalgic feeling owning a library of books. Its the same reason people own Homer's book Iliad but have never read it. It just makes them feel good.
Sypris - Giver of 2 cents
PS - Homer's Iliad is not Homer Liwags...
I'm a firm believer in technology and the advances with video's is great but there is still that great nostalgic feeling owning a library of books. Its the same reason people own Homer's book Iliad but have never read it. It just makes them feel good.
Sypris - Giver of 2 cents
PS - Homer's Iliad is not Homer Liwags...
I don't think that learning to play piano is commercialized the same way as learning magic.
I think, at least at the moment, it's simply that these finer points, simply only exist in books. They are points which had been learned after decades of study by the masters - masters who remain unmatched, and simply have not released material in DVDs (or are unable to do so because many are no longer living).
Your point is certainly true about our expectations - it's not that talking stops us from achieving this though - it's simply that those with this special knowledge, a) buried them in books b) didn't put them for DVD c) largely are now incapable of putting them onto a DVD. It's not that Ben Earl or whoever can't teach us these lessons - they simply do not have them because they have chops but they're not "great" in the sense that Dai Vernon was great, they simply don't have these lessons to teach, so they can't teach them (obviously), on DVD or otherwise. Not so much that the medium stops us - although, expectations do factor into the equation - but the knowledge simply isn't there to put onto a DVD.
Even if you took say, Dai Vernon's material, and now had someone else teach it to you on a DVD... It still wouldn't be the same as learning from the man himself.
Here's a quote from Mike Close:
" Anyone who responds to this advice by replying that he can't learn magic from a book, needs to deal with that shortcoming first. Magic is (in part) an intellectual hobby. You need to be able to take information off the printed page and transform it into three-dimensional action. This is not a skill that you are born with. It is a skill you develop by working with it every day. Learn to read."
I happen to agree with Mr. Close.
I always find it amusing to note the undertone of those who champion one format over the other, I happen to own both books and videos, books more than the other, it's not a mutually exclusive decision.
What I abhor is someone who makes a video that has never read a book, it showcases the depth of the performer's ignorance magically and in some cases universally.
Dave
" Anyone who responds to this advice by replying that he can't learn magic from a book, needs to deal with that shortcoming first. Magic is (in part) an intellectual hobby. You need to be able to take information off the printed page and transform it into three-dimensional action. This is not a skill that you are born with. It is a skill you develop by working with it every day. Learn to read."
I happen to agree with Mr. Close.
I always find it amusing to note the undertone of those who champion one format over the other, I happen to own both books and videos, books more than the other, it's not a mutually exclusive decision.
What I abhor is someone who makes a video that has never read a book, it showcases the depth of the performer's ignorance magically and in some cases universally.
Dave
Of course it isn't. But the topic is: Why books? Not Books vs. DVDs or Either Books or DVDs? Or Which One is Better?
So really, this topic isn't about championing one at all. But I like the quote by Mike Close, thanks for bringing it up.
This is true. Related, we need to get rid of the whole, "I'm just a visual learner" crap when you're only saying it because you don't want to appear stupid for saying you like DVDs better. If you like a trick but don't quite conceptualize it as written, that should only inspire you to attack it harder, to pick it apart and rework odd moves and add your own subtleties.
Sometimes, it's good to look at it like a challenge - "I will not babysit you through this. Here are the moves. You make them flow together."