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BREAK by Uday Jadugar

Visually bend and BREAK a signed coin in half - then let the spectator keep the pieces.More Details

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How does black magic work to ruin someone?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Salomei, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. Salomei

    Salomei Banned

    I wonder how does black magic can put hurdles in the way of someone to progress or sometimes they even get killed? Can any give me a scientific explanation? Thanks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2012
  2. JasonEngland

    JasonEngland theory11 artist / card mechanic

    You've posted a great question but in the wrong sub-forum. This clearly belongs in the coin magic section.

    Jason
     
  3. Haha Jason, nice one. Anyways, you can't give a scientific explanation for magic, they're opposites.
     
  4. Real magic or black magic doesn't exist. Watch Sherlock Holmes (The first movie, not "Game of shadows") and you will understand. Actually, I liked that movie 10 times more because I'm a magician.

    EDIT: I really recommend this movie to anyone who didn't watch it. It is so good.
     
  5. Ady01, in some parts of the world black magic is still believed and feared. A wedding I was hired for a while ago was for an African bride and a lot of her family were there in tradition dress. She married a white guy so there was a mixed audience. Some of the African people genuinely believed I had powers and at points, dragged the kids away saying "No! You don't want to see that".

    The only way you can really get around it is by exposing the secret to show them that there is a method behind it and you're not accomplishing it by some divine power.
     
  6. Without wanting to be overly harsh, I don't think taking a Guy Ritchie film as some kind of educational resource is a sensible idea. You can't even learn about Sherlock Holmes from watching Sherlock Holmes.

    Depending on how you define it, "black magic" could certainly be seen as real. As I understand it, "magick" (by which I mean "real" magic, as opposed to tricks), is a systematized way to use your intention to affect the world around you. Black magick is that process, using your intentions to impede, rather than assist, others. So, the question of whether black magick is real comes down to this: Is it possible to impede the intentions of others simply with your own intentions. I would contend that yes it is.

    I've just been reading Richard Wiseman's book Paranormality. He discusses a study where a teacher was told that certain students in her class showed signs of being "bloomers", i.e. performing better than others of their age. When the next round of tests happened at the end of the school year, these "bloomers" performed around 15% better than their classmates, thus proving the original assessment. The one sticking point is that these students had been selected at random. This study demonstrates that a belief can manifest in the real world in a way which could be called "white magick", since it helped these so-called bloomers to perform better. The flip-side of that, of course, is that if belief can help random students perform better, the opposite is also true, so people can be negatively affected by belief and intention.

    Whether you choose to classify that as magick is up to you, but it's certainly within the word's definition.
     
  7. I personally believe that the power of human mind can affect certain things only by thinking about them ( I didn't exactly express myself the way I wanted ), but not anyone can accomplish such things. Many people have weak minds. About that story with the bloomers. It doesn't prove anything. When I first started 9th grade 2 years ago, I had a group of girls in my class which told all our teachers that their friend ( let's call her girl "x" ) was the best in her class from 1st to 8th grade. It happens that I was her collegue too from the beginning. She was no bloomer. She was an ordinary girl that had stupid friends. Since then, she always gets better marks than us, just because the teacher gives her better marks. We always compare our tests with her's and they are equal if not better.

    EDIT: Does it matter if it's a Guy Ritchie film?? I also don't want to be harsh, but I hate it when people see a movie title and say "oh god it's directed by X or it has X actor in it. I'm not watching that thing." WHY?? Different movies have different scenarios and actors behave differently. It is a very good movie in my oppinion.
     
  8. Your story is a bit different from the study I mentioned. You're talking about one person who consistently out-performed their group of friends. I'm talking about a group of randomly selected students who, to a statistically significant degree, out-performed their classmates simply by dint of their teacher's perception of them and the behaviours that engendered.

    As to your assertion that "not anyone can accomplish such things", I'd refer you to The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance. People who are "expert" (i.e. can accomplish things that others can't), do not possess any special qualities that mark them out from the rest of the population. They just worked harder.

    Oh, and for the record, I quite liked both of Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes films. It's just I don't think any of his output could be usefully classed as educational or instructive.
     
  9. I didn't say these films should be classed as educational or instructive. I just wanted to give an example of how "black magic" works in most cases. About that study you mentioned, I think it is the same case as in my story. The teacher is told that one or more students are bloomers and he gives better grades to those stundets. A study made using humans isn't always accurate. If they really wanted to prove somthing they should've used a machine to grade the tests, but then who would receive the information about the students being bloomers?? It is in most teachers' nature to blindly give better grades to stundents who they think are better.
     
  10. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough on the nature of the study. The tests were standardized intelligence tests administered by the psychologist who ran the study so their was no room for teacher bias in grading. The effect of expectation on performance has become known as "the Pygmalion Effect", and this full study is written up in Pygmalion in the Classroom by R Rosenthal and L Jacobson.
     
  11. That clears everything.
     
  12. I'm amazed Craig Browning hasn't yet jumped on this post. We had a discussion quite recently about using 'Real' magic. He knows his stuff so I would suggest contacting him. Personally I can't help feeling that it must be real in some sense, otherwise there wouldn't be so many stories/lore about it. It's just sifting out the rubbish from the real which is the tricky point.

    Simon_Magic
     
  13. I've scanned through this thread in that it's early in my day and hard for me to stomach typical magician/skeptic hyperbole. Especially when said sorts haven't taken time to study the realities behind the esoteric without their filters and assumptions in place.

    As Formula pointed out MAGICK is quite real to more than 60% of the world's population (and that's a conservative projection that doesn't include religiously based perspectives . . . then again, according to most Judeo-Christian elements, no one does real miracles unless they are a Christian. . . ask any spiritualist about that). In certain parts of the Pacific Island world just the Cups & Balls are seen as genuine magic exclusive to the local shaman. The UTNE Reader had an article about this many years ago that was quite fascinating as well as revealing; a journey taken by a westerner (magician) through this region and who was close to death a few times because of how closely guarded the local shaman was and how any mage that could up-stage that wise man was seen as a threat -- a genuine danger.

    Look at how quickly Catholic & Protestant ministers jumped on the Milk Drinking Hindu Statutes in 1995, soon to be followed by the left brainers & naysayers who offered some curious explanations, most of which don't fully explain the phenomena but sate their own paranoia when it comes to the idea that "real" magic & miracles could exist.

    While our original poster has probably fled the scene by now, thanks to the kindnesses expressed by so many arrogant jerks I think it's important to cover the question from an occultists or more specifically a theosophists perspective. . .

    BLACK MAGICK is any action taken on the spiritual level, in which the welder of the power/spell/prayer is attempting to force their will into the life of another. Black Magick is sinister in that it is so easy to fall into; who here hasn't had a relative pray for them? If you didn't give give them permission to do so, they are welding black magic -- pushing their will, be it good or bad, upon your own life and personal freedom of will. Similarly, those that "Pray for the Troops" are committing a form of trespass by imposing their will and sense of national pride onto the lads but likewise (and more to the point) wishing ill-will towards the perceived enemy -- we want total triumph over our foe. While this seems logical and innocent on one hand, metaphysically speaking it is exceptionally wrong and thus, dark magick. The other side of this same coin is how "the other side" has citizens praying to their gods for the exact same results and by way of the same selfish ignorance -- a realization their clergy never educated them on . . . and sadly, they do so purposefully.

    Now here's the part that will through you most . . . in order to do healing work the practitioner must frequently resort to black magick because direct permission can't be obtained. There are those that claim to gain that permission on the Astral plane by speaking to the soul of the injured or ailing, but carnally speaking there is no exchange.

    Take a look at scripture and how many times you find the various Saints and Sages asking people if they are ready to accept a healing or if they are prepared to live life according to the law once the healing is set upon them?

    This is always a requisite for true healing work but not always practical, which means that the healer must step in and do whatever they can to create temporary reprieve . . . long enough to either ask for permission to further the healing or else see how said subject will choose to live once the first level of healing is offered. As the saying goes, one finds no atheists in fox holes; when facing their mortality many people will swear to all sorts of things and then excuse it away after the fact. Such deception compounds their own karma and more or less insures a hellish life, but that's neither here or there.

    The point is, Black Magick does not always involve demons, incantations, rituals of various sorts, etc. Too, one of the most famous rites tied to Black Magick & "Satanism" is the Black Mass, which happens to be a Catholic Rite that can only be performed by ordained priests upon a consecrated altar. It was a means by which various medieval parishes generated income from the area nobles (voyeurs). The 20th century revival of this idea was a theatrical invention of Anton LeVey and I emphasize "theatrical" in that no one was ever harmed in any way during the presentation or observance of said rites -- Anton was an extreme pacifist . . . he'd literally catch insects in a cup or his hands and let them free outside his home. He was one of the first exotic cat trainers to use passive training methods over whips and prods.

    The other thing that the naysayer rarely recognizes is that fact that "Magick" means many different things to the various believers. Some are a lot like me, seeing a more scientific perspective around it and the more microcosmic or even quantum side as to how it works. The books on Energy and Real Magick by Issac Bonewits would go a long way to further explaining what I'm saying here. On the psychological level, Donald Michael Kraig's "Modern Magic" is the best "elementary" resource (introduction to the Kabalah & Jewish Mysticism
     
  14. With heavy hitters like Craig, Formula, and TeeDee already working in this thread there's very little room for my input, so I'll keep my response brief. I've only skimmed Craig's reply but I can already tell you there's a treasure trove of knowledge there and I feel he's a bit more able to provide better information than I on this subject anyways.

    As others have said magick is a very real thing for a number of cultures all over the world. Now since black magick deals with spells against others I'm not exactly jumping at the chance to provide the OP with too much information since we don't know why he' or she is asking for it or to what ends they intend to apply this knowledge. Karma is a beast, and I don't want to be responsible for giving someone ammunition they intend to fire at others without knowing more about the individual and their situation first.

    I know the OP asked if there is a scientific explanation for black magick. To that end, no there isn't one. You can't scientifically prove something that works on a system of faith. Just like I can't prove that your god exists, you can't prove that magick doesn't. Sure we could get into debate about the power of suggestion, NLP, the power of faith, fraudulent methods to deceive the masses, etc but that's a whole other animal of a discussion.

     
  15. I disagree with this a little bit. If we assume magick is real, then it doesn't work on faith. It must work via some natural law that we simply haven't figured out yet. Therefore, it can be studied scientifically. At its base level, if you remove all the labels humans have applied over the millennia to comfort themselves, magick is the systematic use of energy to effect energy. Either the use of one's own energy to effect the energy of the natural cycle (ie: Pouring the first jug of apple cider over the roots of the oldest apple tree in order to help ensure a plentiful harvest) or the use of one's energy to effect the energy of other people or creatures (ie: healing or harming someone via rituals). Quantum mechanics has shown that actions against one particle can effect another particle regardless of distance between them. To me, that seems to be a pretty good clue that there could be something to the so-called 'supernatural'.
     
  16. Christopher, that was a great post!

    The "Physics" of Metaphysics arguably begins here with the basic tenets credited Hermes. Essentially, all aspect of physical science as the average human being understands such, applies to the spiritual side of man's nature; the laws of vibration, polarity, gender, all of it is one in the same just at a higher frequency dealing with energies that are far more subtle and less tangible than we're use to. This is why Metaphysics and "Magick" are scoffed at by the supposedly Learned and Intellectual -- those tuned so deeply to their left brain logic that they are blind and disconnect to the right side of their mind -- the creative, emotional and playful side. Granted, they have a "taste" of such things, but not the heart link between mind and soul. There views of life are simple too pragmatic, frequently due to personal angst around a given situation that results in a "psychic blockage" for lack of a better term; the mind itself rejects the fantastic and will continue to do so until a new event in that person's life, unlocks things and helps them recover . . . but that's another story altogether.

    Magick is Only Real When We Believe in It. . . is kind of true; the welder of the magick must believe with their entire being in that it is our will -- our energy, that primes the proverbial pump. The ritual worker as well as the witch adds to this energy everything from herb based ingredients to the color of candles and phases of the moon. . . even the planets. A spell can take years to generate though few in today's world are willing or even able to hold focus for that long. The analytical point is however, each ingredient vibrates at a particular rate that supports the vibration of the sorcerer's will and intent. Like creating an electric motor or transformer, we are wrapping the wire around a core so as to step-up the out-put.

    BUT, there is another side of physics, something many of the wannabe witches and wizards forget; For Each Action There is a Reaction. Karmically it's known as the 3-fold return e.g. whatever energy you put out will return to you 3 times, amplified 3 times greater with each return. So if I'm sending a dark curse to someone I must be prepared to pay a big price on my end; the spell hits them once but me, thrice. There is no escaping this law though many try; it always catches up to you however; usually when you least expect it. This we can see first hand if we but look . . .
    . . . there was a guy in my school that was a total jack ass -- the classic sport-jock-jerk -- he gave me all sorts of grief in those days but a few years ago, when my family and I moved from Vegas back to Ohio, said schmuck was working for me on my house, as an all purpose repair man. He was a drunk and all around looser. I've seen such things far more times than I can count, not just when it comes to people in my life, but those that have brought harm to others as well. To coin a phrase, the Universe takes care of its own.

    Or I should say "Karma" takes care of things in that Karma loathes imbalance. It's just is to keep things balanced so when you have shifted too far towards the negative you will be given "lessons" to help you come back to center. Contrary to New Age belief however, there is a such thing as too much positive energy and so the same happens, you are given reason to consciously return to center -- TO FIND YOUR BALANCE.

    ONE LAST THING. . . People do not need to know that you have cast a spell on them when it comes to black magick, the spell will still take hold if structured properly. In Voodoo and similar traditions, the cursed is often given some kind of tangible proof of the curse which results more in a kind of self-fulfilling course of self-destruction . . . or so goes the typical explanation.
     
  17. Awesome thread!!!!
     
  18. Curses! Damn this moving to a new apartment thing! I was planning a brilliant reply to Christopher's excellent points but alas... Craig beat me to the punch. Again.

    I'll counter with this since Craig didn't touch on it so much. Faith is a very VERY potent thing. All magick is worked through faith. You may laugh at me for saying this but movies like the Matrix, Star Wars, and even that Disney movie with Nick Cage "The Sorcerers Apprentice" have a lot of metaphysical truths written into them. In the Matrix Neo must learn that there is no spoon, while Yoda teaches us to unlearn what we've learned. And while I disagree with many points and assertions made by the Judaic Christian church they have a few points to their own that are absolutely correct. eg. The bible tells us that faith can move mountains. As Craig pointed out all faith is, when boiled down to its core components is the absolute direction of human will and intention. If you speak it, if you mean it, and if you believe in your heart the desired outcomes will happen then reality has no choice but to conform to your desires. Now of course there's a lot more that goes into making things happen, and the way they happen but you get the basic idea. Faith healing works on this very principle. People want to be healed. They believe that they can be/ are healed, and the person doing the healing believes they have the ability to cause the healing to take place. So is it really a miracle from god... or is it the manifestation of human will? Magick or Divine intervention?

    While we're discussing meta-physical things with physical outcomes this does bring up the subject of energy. I was thinking a bit about that this morning, and perhaps after I've cleaned and assembled the fridge I'll get a bit of time to type out some thoughts. Should be promising.

    cheers!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2012
  19. William, your post reminds me of the old minister caught in a flood. When the water got to his ankles a neighbor was pulling out in a truck and offered him a ride but the parson said "Thanks but no, the Lord will provide" . . . as he sat praying, now on the second floor of his home a man in a boat came by and offered to take him to higher ground and again the parson said, "Thank no, the Lord will see to my safety" The waters rose even higher and the preacher found himself on the roof of his home as a helicopter hovered down, offering him a rope and again, the prayerful priest said "No, I'll trust in God".

    Within an hour's time the torrent of water washed the ministers home away and him along with it. As he awoke, finding himself in the heavens of God his heart was filled with joy but also wrenched. When he saw God he asked, "Father, why did you not save me from the flood?"

    God replied; "hell man, I sent you a truck, a boat and a helicopter you just wouldn't take action"

    ACTION is the key here, you can pray, burn candles, chant make offerings, etc, etc. but until you get off your duff and invest yourself towards fulfilling your will, it will rarely come about. Faith can and will move mountains but that doesn't mean you won't need a team of bulldozers and some explosives to get the job done. While "the Lord works in mysterious ways" it is rarely in ways that are NOT of natural action -- organic.

    Sure, people recover from illnesses because of spells, prayers, the laying on of hands and many other "magickle" rites. Such miracles are rare and come as the result of the patient's will and frequently a decision they make during a NDE type situation.

    You see, real Magick is just like stage Magic -- there's a trick to it.
     

  20. False Information,

    Hath, and shall remain
     

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