"This is a trick" vs "I have powers"

Aug 31, 2007
369
0
Hartford, CT
Okay, I'm opening up a can of worms here, but if we are polite, we can get a real good discussion going. And that's what I'm shooting for with this topic.

As you may know, I do hypnosis mostly and I'm just starting to incorporate magic into it. I was inspired by Derren Brown and his style.

I like him because he comes right out and says that he doesn't have any "psychic powers", there's no such thing as hypnosis, no such thing as ghosts, etc, but he will do tricks to make you believe that all that is real. I try to emulate that, because I also don't believe in any of those things. (Yes, including hypnosis. I think that what I do onstage is something people do everyday. I'll go into more detail if you want later).

I'm not a big fan of Criss Angel, however, I don't hate him either. But, I do respect him. I loved seeing him stand up to Uri and that other guy on Phenom. Magicians like him, Penn & Teller, Derren Brown, etc, I think are to be respected because they will come out and say "look, I'm fooling you. It's a trick." and you still think it's magic.

People like Uri and others who claim that there is no trick and that they really have powers irks me. I feel that they are liers and scam artists. Because if you know the secret of a trick, and you know there's a mundane explaination, but you still claim to have "special" powers, then you are not relieing on your talents. You are now in the rhelm of scamming someone.

It's one thing to fool people, then be honest with them , say "you were fooled" and have them amazed at you anyway.

It's quite another thing to say "I have powers", knowing full well that there is a mundane explaination, and never let them know you just fooled them. That's the cheap way out.

Those of you who do believe in psychic powers and the paranormal, do you believe that any of the magicians out there who claim to have powers do indeed have powers? And why? (Please, mind you, I"m not asking to ridcule or flame and I don't want that at all from anyone, just want to know and have a debate).

Finally, as a performer, what do you tell your audience?

Personally, I follow the Derren Brown method. I tell them outright that I have no powers, that everything I do, including the hypnosis, is a trick. They are still amazed anyway.

I might, once in a while, give them a pratter that is complete bull, but at the end, after the reveal, I tell them that what I was saying was a complete falsehood.
 
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I pretty much take the same approach. Sometimes i say, "A magician is not a magician by definition." I go on to explain how i have more knowledge then them, and indeed are just 'tricking' them. What I do (andb elieve others should) is entertainment. Sure, one may believe I've got some special harry Potter type wizardry, but that is just hogwash. Purely for entertainment. Shouldn't even be called a magician, just an entertainer.
 
Sep 1, 2007
405
1
The only thing I ever tell and or ask my audience after a performance is if they enjoyed it and if they would like to see something else. Often I ask if they enjoyed it if they are open mouthed and speechless. But regardless I honestly think that doing either (saying you have powers or saying you are doing a trick) is not my cup of tea. I say I do Illusions (i saw somebody else here in the forums say that also, something about tricks, prostitutes and cocaine?). If they want to see an illusion I perform one. Great, was it a trick? sweet. Was it powers? awesome. What I am doing does not matter as long as my audience enjoys it. If they believe it is a trick, then they may respect my sleight of hand. If they believe I have powers, good for them, I never made such a claim. Let them believe what they want. If my performance is good I should not need to explain myself. I would say it is a problem if I come in CLAIMING I have powers. If you stay away from either thing, tricks or powers (hence me saying it is an illusion) they will make of it what they will. I do not take advantage of anyone. I am there to entertain. If that means laughter then sweet, but if it means amazement then sweet too. If I'm performing and make a fish appear, maybe I could downplay it saying that my fish's name is Edward or something, making him slightly mundane. But hey, my illusion was there for them to have a reaction, to see something interesting/amazing/entertaining, for us to communicate. I firmly believe this is the most important thing there is. Forget about me having powers, what good is that? Doesn't it feel better for the audience when THEY feel like THEY have powers when you do tricks involving them? Again, I think the aim of your thread is a very good one. This is just my opinion. Claim nothing, be ready to entertain and let them react as they will... and simply have them enjoy themselves.


Juan.
 
Nov 25, 2007
15
0
Cyprus
Nice topic ownerM,
I will try and give MY opinion.

Personally, I think that ones audience wants to believe in magic. I don't ever say that I have "powers" or indeed that I don't have "powers", I let my audience decide.

I also think a lot depends on your persona, i.e. if you project yourself as a mysterious, dark, serious sort of person, you are encouraging your audience to believe you are indeed a man of power. Personally, I am a bit on the humorous side, so making someone believe I actually bent that spoon with my mind is harder.

Here in Cyprus, I have discovered that the Cypriot audience is two fold, they either tear your performance to pieces by telling you how you did it, (how they THINK you did it), or they believe you are a F*****g Witch!!

So to sum up, just entertain, enjoy what you do, and let them decide.
Christo
 
Oct 31, 2007
11
0
Nice topic ownerM,
I will try and give MY opinion.

Personally, I think that ones audience wants to believe in magic. I don't ever say that I have "powers" or indeed that I don't have "powers", I let my audience decide.

I also think a lot depends on your persona, i.e. if you project yourself as a mysterious, dark, serious sort of person, you are encouraging your audience to believe you are indeed a man of power. Personally, I am a bit on the humorous side, so making someone believe I actually bent that spoon with my mind is harder.

Here in Cyprus, I have discovered that the Cypriot audience is two fold, they either tear your performance to pieces by telling you how you did it, (how they THINK you did it), or they believe you are a F*****g Witch!!

So to sum up, just entertain, enjoy what you do, and let them decide.
Christo


This guy has the right idea- be mysterious about it
You dont have to be devilish and creepy to do it though
Look at david copperfield, He's a funny guy, but at the same time is perfect becasue he doesnt say if it's a trick, he's mysterious about it.
 
Sep 1, 2007
223
1
Florida.
What you say is true, to an extent.

I think the title "magician" has something to do with this and also word association. When lay people here "magician" they of course immediately think magic, and magic to them is to do the impossible. To them it is impossible for the card to come to the top, it is impossible for the card to have changed, it is impossible that I know what card they are thinking off.

Now since most of these things to them are "impossible", which they immediately associate what just happened as "magic", and then they think that you are a magician which even furthers there belief that what just happened was magic.

In a way, the audience convinces themselves into thinking that you can do magic, and to do magic is to have special powers.

And I wouldn't ever go out of my way to say that what I am doing isn't magic, they are allowed to believe what they want, who am I to take away from their experience. Now you can present your magic how ever you want, but if they believe in it don't tell them they are wrong.

Spekky: Hey, magician, show me a magic trick.
The Magi: Sure, but first what I am about to show you is not magic, it is merely sleight of hand.

WOW. What a buzz kill. They are waiting to be astonished and you are pretty much belittling yourself to them, you are no longer a magician in their mind, now you are that guy that can do "tricks" and "sleights".

Those are my thoughts.


P.S. I didn't think that what Criss did deserved any merit, he sounded like a hypocrite. Now, I didn't like Callahan either, but he had not right to destroy his reputation. And Criss said that he doesn't "prey" on the vulnerable minds of people who have lost loved ones, BUT yet I recall an episode where he "contacted the dead".
 
Aug 31, 2007
369
0
Hartford, CT
I would say it is a problem if I come in CLAIMING I have powers. If you stay away from either thing, tricks or powers (hence me saying it is an illusion) they will make of it what they will.

Spekky: Hey, magician, show me a magic trick.
The Magi: Sure, but first what I am about to show you is not magic, it is merely sleight of hand.

WOW. What a buzz kill. They are waiting to be astonished and you are pretty much belittling yourself to them, you are no longer a magician in their mind, now you are that guy that can do "tricks" and "sleights".

I agree with you both completely. :)

There's no need to say anything, actually. Especially in the case of causally doing a trick (or illusion or whatever you want to call it. :) ).

And on stage, it's very powerful to let the audience make their own descion.

I'm not like that (I got a big mouth I guess. :) ). I just like to make it clear that I have no supernatural powers. Partly because, being a hypnotist, the first thing out of a person's mouth when I tell them that is "can you help me lose weight?" or "can you stop me from smoking?"

Also, just to make this clear, I do not give away any secrets, and I don't say "what I am about to show you is not magic, it is merely sleight of hand" or something like that. I kind of add it at the end, using it as a twist for those who might to the conclusion that I do have powers.
 
Sep 9, 2007
512
0
I think it depends on my audience, but i'll never go as far to say I have powers.

For little kids I'll say "It's magic." Magic is a pretty broad definition, so however they interpret it is up to their experiences. For lack of a better comparison, I don't want to be the guy who tells them there's no Santa Claus, but I don't want to be the guy telling them Santa is Real. "It's Magic" covers the basis, and as their understanding of what Magic is changes, the answer is still fair and true.

For adults, it depends on the context. When I do Mentalism/Cold Reading, I left them know afterwards that It's just a clever trick without explaining specifics. If I'm in a playful mood, I'll use the "It's Magic" thing again, but by my attitude they'll just think i'm a clever trickster.

I think there's an small middle ground between outright lying and saying it's real vs. spoiling the fun and saying it's a trick. I like to work in that middle ground where they're in suspended disbelief.
 
Before I begin a show, whether it be simple magic effects, mentalism, or larger scale illusions, I ALWAYS start out by saying that everything I perform is nothing more than illusion. Nothing I do is "real magic". What I say most of the time is:

"Throughout the length of my show, you may ask yourself 'Does this guy have some type of power?' Well, I don't think so, but i'll let you decide for yourself."

I also dislike the people who claim to have supernatural powers, when most of the demonstrations they perform can be duplicated or copied. In my opinion, if somebody else can do it without supernatural powers, then what you're performing isn't real magic. Some people believe that Criss Angel has some kind of godly power after they saw him walk on water. I laugh everytime I hear somebody say that. So little of them know that somebody has done it before!!! Andre Kole anybody?

Yes, people who claim to have supernatural powers irk me as well. :)

Anthony Bass
 
C

clarrus

Guest
I'm a sci fi nerd guy so I acutally use science and math to explain everything. For most card tricks I have them knock on the card before they turn it over. If they inquire how i did the trick, I would tell them that when they knocked on the cards, the force of the knock caused the sub-atomic particles to move around rearranging the card.

They usally don't believe me though.....I don't know why, it's a pretty good explanation to me.

Or sometimes I would say math can explain magic in everyway. How did I guess what card you picked? Well you see I have a quantum computer implanted in my head and it does all the probability mechanics for me and gives me the answer OR I can talk to the cards....

Sometimes I have more fun making up excuses of how I did the trick than doing the trick themselves.


It's SOOOOOOOO funny when they start tapping on the cards after I tell them the force of the taps causes to change........
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
there's no such thing as hypnosis,

There is such a thing as hypnosis. Just not the Hollywood version you think it is.

Finally, as a performer, what do you tell your audience?

I never outright claim to have supernatural powers, but my exact words vary depending on the performance.

When performing on the streets, I paint myself as a charming huckster well-versed in gambling cheats, psychic scams, and optical illusions. I never tell them I'm fake, but I don't need to. They leave thinking "This guy is slick."

I have a show I'm developing called Psycho-Skepticism. I go in telling everyone that what I'm about to do is bull. I won't tell them how I do it, but rather let them pay attention to the telltale signs of a conman. I present mentalism feats such as fortune-telling, PK, and automatic writing from a skeptics' perspective.

I have another show called The Power of Dreams in which it's the audience doing the magic and not me. I get into their heads and give them a sense of self-empowerment. Again, I never claim supernatural powers. I'm merely using illusion and artifice to illustrate the power of the self.

It depends very heavily on the kind of show you're trying to do.

P.S. I didn't think that what Criss did deserved any merit, he sounded like a hypocrite. Now, I didn't like Callahan either, but he had not right to destroy his reputation. And Criss said that he doesn't "prey" on the vulnerable minds of people who have lost loved ones, BUT yet I recall an episode where he "contacted the dead".

So did Derren Brown. But do you know what Criss and Derren did that Callahan didn't? They admitted to their fraudulence. Derren outright told the people what happened and how he did it. Criss ended the episode with, "Do you believe in ghosts? I don't."

Get your facts straight.
 
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I have a show I'm developing called Psycho-Skepticism. I go in telling everyone that what I'm about to do is bull. I won't tell them how I do it, but rather let them pay attention to the telltale signs of a conman. I present mentalism feats such as fortune-telling, PK, and automatic writing from a skeptics' perspective.

That's a damn good concept.

Anthony Bass
 
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Nov 22, 2007
21
0
Its to the point, for me, where I do nearly 100% mentalism (I consider metal bending mentalism). After the trick, I boldly state "Listen, do not believe that I have any sort of powers. Everything you've seen is simply a trick. There are no such things as psychics, people cannot read minds or bend metal. Its a magic trick. Do not be duped otherwise"

As for people who claim they have real powers, James Randi once said "If they are doing these feats by real powers instead of magic tricks, then they're doing it the hard way!"
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
I'd like to play devil's advocate here because it seems a question is asked and most everyone agrees with the proper way to go about it. Proper being what is expected among the magic community on how to treat your spectators. What though if you do claim you have powers? Wouldn't that make everything you make appear or dissappear more realistic and engaging to the audience? Or is everyone afraid to get called a scam artist? As long as you don't gather a following/cult and claim to harness the powers of Jesus what is wrong with having people think other people can do extraordinary things? It could even make people strive harder to make their own lives better.
 
Nov 22, 2007
21
0
Same reason you don't tell those same people you live in a mansion and talk to a god at night and drive expensive cars while fighting crime.

It's a blatant lie.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I'd like to play devil's advocate here because it seems a question is asked and most everyone agrees with the proper way to go about it. Proper being what is expected among the magic community on how to treat your spectators. What though if you do claim you have powers? Wouldn't that make everything you make appear or dissappear more realistic and engaging to the audience? Or is everyone afraid to get called a scam artist? As long as you don't gather a following/cult and claim to harness the powers of Jesus what is wrong with having people think other people can do extraordinary things? It could even make people strive harder to make their own lives better.

Actually, I reference my earlier statement on my Power of Dreams show.

I never say one way or the other whether or not I have powers, and I don't need to. I create an ambience lit by candles with my voice softened and ideal for an intimate setting. The magic is done by my spectators. With me helping to guide them, they warp metal with their minds, experience a past life in prehistoric times, and face and conquer one of their deepest fears.

At no point do I need to act like a con man and tell everyone how magical I am. The spectators are given reason to believe in their own strength of will and mind. They're inspired to better themselves for the experience and shown to recognize the beauty in the world around them.

I structured the show to stimulate four out of the five senses, and I might add Taste-icular to stimulate the sense of taste as well. The scripting is heavily steeped in Romantic philosophy, and the atmosphere is one of mystique and mystery.

I never need to claim I have powers, but I also never need to say I don't have them, because it never comes into question.

This is an interesting show for me because I also am a practitioner of haunted magic. I avoid saying I have any mediumistic powers or denying to maintain the atmosphere of the show, but I do come clean if I suspect that someone is taking this a little too seriously.
 
Sep 4, 2007
3
0
I agree. I don't think people should lie and pass themselves off as real magicians. But, one point I have is that for example, when someone does a loop effect, what does he say? I think for those effects, one can't say either that they have powers, for he is a liar, or, saying it was a trick, which partially takes away the impossibility for the trick.

Just wondering, people who are in this thread, do you consider PK effects to be lying? A.k.a. saying that with your mind, yo're bending the spoon/making something move?
 
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