What are your thoughts about old magicians and older books? Do you prefer reading books that are older? What do you think about learning from videos from guys like Slydini, Elmsley and Lorayne? Do you think modern magicians teach things better and are more fun? What about new type of magic like phone magic? Interested to hear your thoughts. I personally like learning from older books because they are what is the start magic and how modern magic was created. I also like some older tricks because they have lots of different ideas from today.
old versus new
- Thread starter Hgagnon
- Start date
Taking older principles from those relic books/magazines and rebranding them or dressing them for today's society is what is powerful and works wonders. I really do not care for phone magic myself as most spectators quickly understand that are magic apps out there doing the magic.
There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers. This has always been the case.
I think it's much easier for poor teachers to get a product out now, though. When the only real option was publishing a book, that book would have to be accepted at a publishers and then also would get edited. It's much harder for a poorly written book to make it in that environment. These days any yahoo with a laptop can publish an eBook in minutes with no editing or filtering process being done.
Considering Lorayne is still alive today I have trouble thinking of him as one of the "old magicians". His memory book is well written but I've never read anything else of his.
I often find the creative thinking in older books to be of higher quality than current releases - but that could be a filter thing. Older books that were sub par wouldn't have survived this long. The stuff that does survive is generally going to be of a higher quality due to the filter of time and also the market. In ten years someone may say the same thing about what they find that was published now.
I don't know a lot of what is being developed that is "new". I don't use technology much in my performances so I only have one thing with a phone that I use. Most of what I do is very old school, using simple props (not even gimmicks in most cases). I don't like to trust electronics, and most of what I do is based around suggestion and influence anyway.
I think it's much easier for poor teachers to get a product out now, though. When the only real option was publishing a book, that book would have to be accepted at a publishers and then also would get edited. It's much harder for a poorly written book to make it in that environment. These days any yahoo with a laptop can publish an eBook in minutes with no editing or filtering process being done.
Considering Lorayne is still alive today I have trouble thinking of him as one of the "old magicians". His memory book is well written but I've never read anything else of his.
I often find the creative thinking in older books to be of higher quality than current releases - but that could be a filter thing. Older books that were sub par wouldn't have survived this long. The stuff that does survive is generally going to be of a higher quality due to the filter of time and also the market. In ten years someone may say the same thing about what they find that was published now.
I don't know a lot of what is being developed that is "new". I don't use technology much in my performances so I only have one thing with a phone that I use. Most of what I do is very old school, using simple props (not even gimmicks in most cases). I don't like to trust electronics, and most of what I do is based around suggestion and influence anyway.
There isn't really an "old" and a "new". There is a constant flow and change throughout generations, all built on the previous ones.
I've found some of my stronger card and coin magic from older books. Alternatively, I found a couple pieces of really strong mentalism effects from some guys that haven't been around but for about 20 - 30 years now.
I'm going to disagree with you there.
I think the level of technological saturation has changed how magic is created, performed, marketed, etc. Far more people can learn more quickly and get to publishing faster. That changes how things are developed.
There are really creative guys currently - but I would argue that the most powerful mentalism out there has been around for hundreds of years. Hypnotism, CMR, and readings. Yes, CMR has been fairly recently codified, but I suspect it's existed for much longer before Cumberland got famous for it.
Interesting, for some reason I've never thought to go back very far for mentalism stuff. If you have any names I could research I would really appreciate it.
That's a wide net to cast. Most of what I have readily available is more contemporary authors who reference older ones. Part of the trickiness is that many of the names you'd be researching were 'real'. Like Hanussen (aka: Hitler's Jewish Clairoyant). Mentalism is also intrinsically linked to Spiritualism (though apparently not as thoroughly as many think) so many techniques and presentations originated in the Seance Chamber. Not to mention that "mentalism" originally referred to an esoteric practice akin to witch craft.
Bill Montana is a font of knowledge regarding the history of mentalism. If you can get on his good side he's an amazing source. Currently working on a documentary on the subject, I believe.
For hypnosis - Reality is Plastic by Anthony Jacquin is the best place to start in my opinion. If you want to learn more about the history then look into guys like James Braid. A day spent on Wikipedia will dredge up all kinds of names to use for your research. Hypnosis goes all the way back to Egyptian times (Sleep Temples). After one has worked with that I have other recommendations.
For CMR the only source I ever needed was Jerome Finley's Full Contact Mind Reading. Banachek's Psychophysiological Thought Reading is a difficult to spell but highly regarded source as well. Because this is just a skill you learn, there's not a lot that can be said other than "this is how you do it and here's some ideas you can use for presentations". I've done the obvious of locating objects, but I've also used it to save my butt for a drawing duplication when my main method failed me.
For readings - that's a trickier thing. I developed my own systems when I was a teenager reading Tarot cards and trying to "develop my psychic abilities" (spoiler: I was a huge geek). Later I realized the skills I had unconsciously developed and codified them. Two sources that can really help are Luke Jermay's From the Notebooks 1, and 0290 by, I think Michael Murray. Basically you can go two ways - the magician way, or the mentalist way. The magician way is to basically regurgitate a vague script or collection of so called Barnum Statements and hope they hit (and they often will). The mentalist way is to learn an oracle system and use it, coupled with your intuition and a few backup systems to flesh out the reading.
Bill Montana is a font of knowledge regarding the history of mentalism. If you can get on his good side he's an amazing source. Currently working on a documentary on the subject, I believe.
For hypnosis - Reality is Plastic by Anthony Jacquin is the best place to start in my opinion. If you want to learn more about the history then look into guys like James Braid. A day spent on Wikipedia will dredge up all kinds of names to use for your research. Hypnosis goes all the way back to Egyptian times (Sleep Temples). After one has worked with that I have other recommendations.
For CMR the only source I ever needed was Jerome Finley's Full Contact Mind Reading. Banachek's Psychophysiological Thought Reading is a difficult to spell but highly regarded source as well. Because this is just a skill you learn, there's not a lot that can be said other than "this is how you do it and here's some ideas you can use for presentations". I've done the obvious of locating objects, but I've also used it to save my butt for a drawing duplication when my main method failed me.
For readings - that's a trickier thing. I developed my own systems when I was a teenager reading Tarot cards and trying to "develop my psychic abilities" (spoiler: I was a huge geek). Later I realized the skills I had unconsciously developed and codified them. Two sources that can really help are Luke Jermay's From the Notebooks 1, and 0290 by, I think Michael Murray. Basically you can go two ways - the magician way, or the mentalist way. The magician way is to basically regurgitate a vague script or collection of so called Barnum Statements and hope they hit (and they often will). The mentalist way is to learn an oracle system and use it, coupled with your intuition and a few backup systems to flesh out the reading.
Fair enough, but I still think it is a gradual change made possible by the older generation. I mean, obviously there is a difference, but there isn't a fine line separating the old and the new. It's there, but it's pretty blurry.
I agree on what you say for the most part. By old he is like 90 something and hasn't made new stuff in a while.
I think the issue is we have vastly different definitions of old 
I just recently got a bunch of out of print booklets from the early 1900s and have reprints of books from the mid-1800s. The style of thinking really was different back then.
I just recently got a bunch of out of print booklets from the early 1900s and have reprints of books from the mid-1800s. The style of thinking really was different back then.
To bastardize George Santayana's famous saying, "those who do not study the work of the past masters are doomed to reinvent it.
I'm fascinated with magic history and love old magic books. I'd bet anyone that I could prepare a better show using any one of Our Magic, Art of Magic, Greater Magic or even Stars of Magic than they could with $100 of downloads. I would say the same about old periodicals like the Jinx, Apocalypse, Hirophant, Ibidem, Chronicles and others.
That being said, I love more modern books by Roberto Giobbi, Stephen Minch, Richard Kauffman, John Bannon, Darwin Ortiz, David Regal and Juan Tamariz.
I'm fascinated with magic history and love old magic books. I'd bet anyone that I could prepare a better show using any one of Our Magic, Art of Magic, Greater Magic or even Stars of Magic than they could with $100 of downloads. I would say the same about old periodicals like the Jinx, Apocalypse, Hirophant, Ibidem, Chronicles and others.
That being said, I love more modern books by Roberto Giobbi, Stephen Minch, Richard Kauffman, John Bannon, Darwin Ortiz, David Regal and Juan Tamariz.
Our Magic is very near the top of my list. I'm currently on a purchase hiatus until I catch up on the many books in my "to read" pile but once I get caught up, that's what I'm going for.
I do like older books, depending on how far back you're talking.
Imagication by T. G Murphy, 52 Lovers by Jose Carroll, anything by Paul Harris, those are around the 70s-80s (although some Paul Harris books were from the 90s).
I read Will Houstoun's "The Notebook," which includes his research done on a book on card magic from the late 18th century. I honestly tried, but the type of vernacular they used back then was so different, I had a very difficult time comprehending what the the author tried to convey. Even Will's footnotes didn't help me too much. The problem isn't the book itself, but the way the English language has evolved since then.
One complaint I have about "modern magicians" and DVDs/video tutorials is that they sometimes repeat their motions (i.e, "Let me do it again.") We have the rewind option for a reason! Therefore some time is wasted during some video production. Although it's miniscule, it's a pet peeve of mine.
Material wise, I've found great magic from older and modern sources. Seek....and you shall find.
Imagication by T. G Murphy, 52 Lovers by Jose Carroll, anything by Paul Harris, those are around the 70s-80s (although some Paul Harris books were from the 90s).
I read Will Houstoun's "The Notebook," which includes his research done on a book on card magic from the late 18th century. I honestly tried, but the type of vernacular they used back then was so different, I had a very difficult time comprehending what the the author tried to convey. Even Will's footnotes didn't help me too much. The problem isn't the book itself, but the way the English language has evolved since then.
One complaint I have about "modern magicians" and DVDs/video tutorials is that they sometimes repeat their motions (i.e, "Let me do it again.") We have the rewind option for a reason! Therefore some time is wasted during some video production. Although it's miniscule, it's a pet peeve of mine.
Material wise, I've found great magic from older and modern sources. Seek....and you shall find.
Just got off of work, thanks ChristopherT that is a great to go on. I really appreciate the time you took for that. Thank you.
More people will complain if they have to rewind than if it's repeated. I know this from experience.
Totally. And those guys have all done their homework and study. The problem I find the hardest is that there is SO MUCH out there to learn! It may sound odd, but sometimes I read books and never actually try to do any of the magic in it, but just to see what others have come up with. I find it inspiring. But man, it's daunting both on the volume side and the cost side! Then throw on top of that some of the extremely creative things that have come out in the past 5 years. Wow. So now I try to focus on an area of study specific to my show - but it's hard.