theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards
Jason England | Strike Second Deal
- Thread starter JDENredden
- Start date
It appears that the earliest reference to "false dealing"of any type is in the Liber Vagatorum which was published ~ 1509.
The earliest actual reference to mention the second deal (no explanation) is in the OPERA NUOUA DOUE FACILMENTE POTRAI IMPARARE PIU GIUOCHI DI MANO ET ALTRI GIUOCHI PIACEUOLISSIMI & GENTILI COME SI POTRA LEGGENDO UEDERE ET FACILMENTE IMPARARE. This four-page pamphlet was published by G. S. di Carlo da Pavia in approximately 1520. We don't know if he was writing about the strike or push-off, as no real details are given.
You also find mentions of the move (but no explanations) in How Gamblers Win: or the Secrets of Advantage Playing (1865) by Gerritt. M. Evans. It's not entirely clear that Evans was talking about the strike second per se, but the language he uses in describing the second makes that theory seem likely.
Quinn's Fools of Fortune (1890) is a possible early candidate for the strike second deal, as pointed out by Darwin Ortiz in The Annotated Erdnase.
References can also be found in Koschitz's Manual of Useful Information (1894), Hardison's Poker (1914), and Poker to Win by Al Smith, which was apparently written in the early 1930s although perhaps not published until much later. Both the Hardison and the Al Smith books are clearly talking about the strike second deal. Koschitz uses language that suggests he is talking about the strike, but it's possible he was referring to the push-off.
One or two other references can be found in Poker: It's Laws and Principles (1915) by Algernon Crofton. As is typical, it can't be precisely determined if he's referring to the strike or push-off, but he mentions the "swishing sound" made by the deal which is more common with the strike.
Additionally, there is an article in Scientific American magazine from the early 1920s that mentions the second deal.
But, the earliest known description of the strike second deal comes to us from Dr. James Elliot. He published his method of doing the strike from the long edge of the deck in Mahatma magazine in 1898. The top card is pulled back (instead of pushed over) and the right thumb strikes the second card at the long edge just above center. Granted, this isn't the modern strike second deal that we think of today, but it is a strike.
For the modern form where the thumb makes contact at the upper right corner, the Hardison reference is probably the earliest known souce.
Once you get into the magic literature, you can turn to the original Walter Scott Phantom of the Card Table (~ 1930s) manuscript, ...And a Pack of Cards (1927) by Jack Merlin, The Card Expert (1938) by Lynn Searles, and Expert Card Technique (1940).
Hope this helps.
Jason
The earliest actual reference to mention the second deal (no explanation) is in the OPERA NUOUA DOUE FACILMENTE POTRAI IMPARARE PIU GIUOCHI DI MANO ET ALTRI GIUOCHI PIACEUOLISSIMI & GENTILI COME SI POTRA LEGGENDO UEDERE ET FACILMENTE IMPARARE. This four-page pamphlet was published by G. S. di Carlo da Pavia in approximately 1520. We don't know if he was writing about the strike or push-off, as no real details are given.
You also find mentions of the move (but no explanations) in How Gamblers Win: or the Secrets of Advantage Playing (1865) by Gerritt. M. Evans. It's not entirely clear that Evans was talking about the strike second per se, but the language he uses in describing the second makes that theory seem likely.
Quinn's Fools of Fortune (1890) is a possible early candidate for the strike second deal, as pointed out by Darwin Ortiz in The Annotated Erdnase.
References can also be found in Koschitz's Manual of Useful Information (1894), Hardison's Poker (1914), and Poker to Win by Al Smith, which was apparently written in the early 1930s although perhaps not published until much later. Both the Hardison and the Al Smith books are clearly talking about the strike second deal. Koschitz uses language that suggests he is talking about the strike, but it's possible he was referring to the push-off.
One or two other references can be found in Poker: It's Laws and Principles (1915) by Algernon Crofton. As is typical, it can't be precisely determined if he's referring to the strike or push-off, but he mentions the "swishing sound" made by the deal which is more common with the strike.
Additionally, there is an article in Scientific American magazine from the early 1920s that mentions the second deal.
But, the earliest known description of the strike second deal comes to us from Dr. James Elliot. He published his method of doing the strike from the long edge of the deck in Mahatma magazine in 1898. The top card is pulled back (instead of pushed over) and the right thumb strikes the second card at the long edge just above center. Granted, this isn't the modern strike second deal that we think of today, but it is a strike.
For the modern form where the thumb makes contact at the upper right corner, the Hardison reference is probably the earliest known souce.
Once you get into the magic literature, you can turn to the original Walter Scott Phantom of the Card Table (~ 1930s) manuscript, ...And a Pack of Cards (1927) by Jack Merlin, The Card Expert (1938) by Lynn Searles, and Expert Card Technique (1940).
Hope this helps.
Jason
I saw that and was very happy, because this 1-on-1 was released a week before.
I love that show
The second deal from the Mentalist was performed by a friend of mine from Los Angeles. He had to have his nails painted for the shot.
I haven't seen the show but his technique is very good. I'm sure it looks fine (especially considering it was for a television show and needed to be seen by laypeople).
Jason
I haven't seen the show but his technique is very good. I'm sure it looks fine (especially considering it was for a television show and needed to be seen by laypeople).
Jason
Where is a good resource to learn to muck cards?
Also, what is the best bottom deal to use? I'm working on a straight-up Erdnase bottom deal, but you mentioned in the podcast that magic has evolved, so what, in your opinion, is the best evolution?
Also, what is the best bottom deal to use? I'm working on a straight-up Erdnase bottom deal, but you mentioned in the podcast that magic has evolved, so what, in your opinion, is the best evolution?
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Jason, I am so happy that you are spending time on the T11 forums. Your wealth of knowledge, skill and respect for card handling is intriguing and inspiring.
Just wanted to say thanks really man, you truly inspire me.
Cheers,
Lloyd .
Just wanted to say thanks really man, you truly inspire me.
Cheers,
Lloyd .
I thought the same when watching the demo. It could be the back design that ruined the illusion for me. With that aside I could see the skillfulness involved. It just occurred to me that casino cards could be printed the way that they are for this exact reason.
The new release of the Steve Forte Gambling Protection Series will have lots of mucks to look at and learn from.
Jason
Jason
I'm really curious as to the type of effects you can generate with a 2nd. This is me basically saying I couldn't find much use out of the move. Is there any work on this combined with other aspects like say... faro shuffles?
WOW. Thanks for sharing that knowledge... I love reading about the history of a move, will definitely do some research.
Dima,
I'm not sure why you keep thinking of this as an "either/or" proposition.
One second deal isn't inherently better or worse than another. The two main categories (strike and push-off) each have their pros and cons.
In a Hold 'Em game where you want to retain the top card on 4th street and deal the second as the burn card, I'd use a push-off second.
But good luck trying to get around the table at a 7-seat blackjack game retaining the top card the entire time. It's possible with a push-off to be sure, but much easier with a strike. Plus, a strike action more closely simulates the dealing styles of most 21 dealers, who have learned to deal quickly and with very little unnecessary motion.
So, if you're thinking "which is better?", then you're asking the wrong question. The real question is "When does one deal outshine the other, and how do I go about incorporating both deals into my arsenal?"
Jason
I'm not sure why you keep thinking of this as an "either/or" proposition.
One second deal isn't inherently better or worse than another. The two main categories (strike and push-off) each have their pros and cons.
In a Hold 'Em game where you want to retain the top card on 4th street and deal the second as the burn card, I'd use a push-off second.
But good luck trying to get around the table at a 7-seat blackjack game retaining the top card the entire time. It's possible with a push-off to be sure, but much easier with a strike. Plus, a strike action more closely simulates the dealing styles of most 21 dealers, who have learned to deal quickly and with very little unnecessary motion.
So, if you're thinking "which is better?", then you're asking the wrong question. The real question is "When does one deal outshine the other, and how do I go about incorporating both deals into my arsenal?"
Jason
Thanks for the reply sir! Looks like i'll be spending the rest of my days perfecting both of them then.
Does that mean there will be a Push Off 1 on 1 as well? That's one of the reasons i assumed it was an "either/or" situation since the video specifically says "Strike" rather than just "Second Dealing".
I presume it's because the two are so different and need to be treated as separate entities.
Does that mean there will be a Push Off 1 on 1 as well? That's one of the reasons i assumed it was an "either/or" situation since the video specifically says "Strike" rather than just "Second Dealing".
I presume it's because the two are so different and need to be treated as separate entities.
That is exactly the kind of history of a move I love reading about (just like Praetoritevong ^_^)
Thanks for sharing, Jason.
- Sean
Thanks for sharing, Jason.
- Sean
Dima,
I don't know if there will be a push-off second 1-on-1 or not. That's up to JB (and the members of the forum).
But you're correct, we only taught one version of the second due to time constraints.
Jason
I don't know if there will be a push-off second 1-on-1 or not. That's up to JB (and the members of the forum).
But you're correct, we only taught one version of the second due to time constraints.
Jason
D
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I don't own the Strike second deal, but I will absolutely get it soon. I haven't purchased any 1 on 1's in a while, but I LOVE all the 1 on 1's to come out in the last several weeks. The more sleight 1 on 1's, the better. If the push-off second deal was released, I would purchase both deals. However, since one second deal just came out, I think maybe a few weeks should go by without releasing the push off second deal just yet. Looking to see more of you here Jason.
-Doug